Are there followers who just can't be led?

O

old dog

Member
And, what should we do when we are faced with this situation?

Over the years of our social dancing, I've encountered some very nice ladies who were quite difficult to lead -- for various reasons [topic for another thread], but we have always been able to make it around the floor (usually only short mixers). I guess I'm a fairly good leader; I've often been complimented on my leading skills. At a dance last night, one lady said "Wow, I should hire you to teach my husband how to lead."

The very next dance with a different (randomly assigned) partner, I was faced with the situation that prompted this thread.

We usually take a measure or more to connect with the music before starting to dance, but before I could even feel the tempo, we were off. (This was a foxtrot that felt more like a fox chase!) The lady wouldn't let me stand close enough to build a good frame for her. She leaned toward me but extended her rear end down the LOD like it was a snow plow. I couldn't get my right hand all the way past her left armpit (yuk) and I was using my hand only to "hang on" and to keep her from getting completely away from me. (I wondered at the time what would happen if I suddenly let go with my right hand.)

I had only minimal influence on the direction of our travel and could not initiate a turn or transition to PP or OP -- unless (it seemed) she had already decided it was a good thing.

Tried my best to just go with the flow and pretend to enjoy the ride, but she wanted to talk, and talk, and talk. I have no idea now what she was talking about, but I do remember working at keeping up a smile and nodding my head a lot while wondering when we would crash into another couple. (Didn't happen, but only due to great effort on my part.)

What else could/should I have done? I tried to use a little more muscle, but it seemed like we would just be getting into a "push-me/pull-you" match and that is clearly not leading/following. If I see this lady at another dance I guess I'll try to avoid her, but I'm not comfortable with that tack. I will talk to our instructor about her, but I think she was a 'visitor' at last night's dance, not a regular student.

I now have a new and very real appreciation for all those followers who complain about being pushed, pulled, jerked, or left to fend for themselves. I sometimes hear my wife complain about a few leaders who can't lead. But here we have a follower who just wouldn't let the leader lead.
 
just give it the old college try, do your best, and don't sweat it. :)

in the context of a single social dance, the intense resistance or lack of vitality that contributes to the feeling of "moving a bag of cement around" isn't going to yield to anything you could probly contribute in that time frame. aside from any physical limitations that may be at play, learning to yield, allow, and give up control can be a deep-seated issue that dancing can only help with, over time, if a follower consciously works on giving it up.

just make the best of it... keep it light... and don't expect too much. :)
 
I would probably want MY instructor to be the person to confront that sort of thing with me. With social dance partners I'd probably just get defensive, but I'd be comfortable getting the same criticism from my teacher, and work with him to fix it.

So if I were you I'd tell your teacher about your concerns, so she can either talk to the woman or talk to her instructor about it.

Although you may not need to do anything... Is it a studio social? If her instructor watches her he may pick up on that at some point.

But again I would absolutely not say anything to her myself in a social setting. You run the risk of ruining her enjoyment of dancing.

Nobody has a 100% enjoyable experience with every partner and you aren't going to have chemistry with everyone you dance with.. but like you said, grin and bear it if you have to, and just let it go.
 
Although I appreciate the new perspective to sympathize with followers who are pushed and pulled, do you feel like you were in danger of being hurt? or pulling a muscle? if this is the case, i think you should steer clear of her at the next social. should she ask you to dance, politely decline. Just like a follower with fear of an agressive leader, i dont think you should be subjectedto any danger from an "aggressive?" follower. you are there to have fun, and it doesnt sound like you did.
 
old dog said:
I guess I'm a fairly good leader; I've often been complimented on my leading skills. At a dance last night, one lady said "Wow, I should hire you to teach my husband how to lead."
Click to expand...

"Leading" is such a misnomer that I have dropped using the word altogether. I used to think I was a good leader until being faced with attempting to dance at a higher level which made me realize that while I wasn't bad, I wasn't good either. I have been constantly complimented about my "leading" or "frame" or whatever, and six months down the road from each of those points I could look back and chuckle at how much worse it had been at the time the compliment was given. My point is simply that people have varying degrees of what qualifies as "good"--the rhetorical question is, are you improving in your level of competency as a dancer?

old dog said:
I had only minimal influence on the direction of our travel and could not initiate a turn or transition to PP or OP -- unless (it seemed) she had already decided it was a good thing.
Click to expand...

If this lady is as wild as you say she was, why are you even considering promenade position? Think about what your goal really should be here, and why promenade position is a bad idea in the situation you were in.


old dog said:
What else could/should I have done? I tried to use a little more muscle, but it seemed like we would just be getting into a "push-me/pull-you" match and that is clearly not leading/following.
Click to expand...

A little more muscle is definitely not the answer. You should have done SSQQ basics around the floor, and possibly a left rock turn at the corner. That's it, no more. Seriously.
 
Thanks for the comments.

It was a studio social last night, but as I noted, I think the lead-resistant lady is not a student there. If she is, she must be new as we have not seen her there before. Our instructor would/will soon discover her needs if she was/is a student.

No, I didn't feel at risk of injury, but I was was pulled off balance now and then. And as happy as she seemed to be with the dance, there was little joy for me. I wondered if I was doing something wrong or if there was something else I should be doing other than just "riding out" this strange new experience.
 
Yes to the thread title. Many. :grin:
old dog said:
And, what should we do when we are faced with this situation?
Click to expand...
I think it isn't so much about trying to be a good "leader", but rather trying to be a good partner. Accommodating one's partner, going where she goes. I've had to do that quite a bit to varying degrees. A few times, it was extreme enough that I was basically following for pretty much the entire dance. And then afterwards, some of those ladies complimented me for being "such a good leader." :cool:
 
Josh said:
"Leading" is such a misnomer that I have dropped using the word altogether. ... My point is simply that people have varying degrees of what qualifies as "good"...
Click to expand...

I've no problem with this, Josh. ("Partnering" may be better than 'leading' and/or 'following.') "Good" is a subjective term. I didn't mean to suggest I'm a top-notch leader (or partner). My head was temporarily swollen by the comment my previous partner had made just minutes before encountering the lady in question. (I've never been satisfied with my own skill level and am constantly looking for ways to improve -- there is always a long way to go.) And this was at the root of my feelings last evening -- that maybe I was doing something wrong or needed a new skill to cope with the situation. Or maybe some ladies simply can't be lead by ordinary mortals.


Josh said:
If this lady is as wild as you say she was, why are you even considering promenade position? Think about what your goal really should be here, and why promenade position is a bad idea in the situation you were in. ... You should have done SSQQ basics around the floor, and possibly a left rock turn at the corner. That's it, no more. Seriously.
Click to expand...

We did stick with the basic most of the time. Strangely, the lady was OK with doing something in PP etc. -- she just did it on her own terms -- when and how she wanted to. I was pretty much along for the ride.
 
Josh said:
You should have done SSQQ basics around the floor, and possibly a left rock turn at the corner. That's it, no more. Seriously.
Click to expand...
I had an encounter with a very experienced, and very awful dancer. So we did just that. After the "dance", figuring I was a beginner, she tried to teach me more foxtrot. :p
 
That reminds me of a follower who used to come to my group class. She took the lead when she first started to learn with her SO, he didn't mind, it wasn't corrected, and after they split up, she became a single FINO.
Maybe she is currently on vacation in Iowa.

Or maybe ladies with a strong leader-type personality have a harder time learning to follow. The opposite could also be true of the leaders, of course.
So how about equality dancing with each person taking the role which comes more naturally to their personality ?!?
 
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