On2 footwork question

I've just started out doing On2 after dancing On1 for 1 year plus.

From what I've gather, they say that footwork for On2 is about the same as On1. (i.e. I can port all my footworks/moves for On1 to ET2 timing and switching all moves <i.e. cbl, cblt> that start on 5 to 2 and I'm doing On2) I mean I can do the ET2 basic to On1 timing without issues.

However, for viewing the clips from Mamboston2. I can see that those who do On2 in the clips have very very very smooth footwork as compared to most of the On1 dancers?

Hence, please enlighten me...
What's the secret to it?

I think it's the timing.

I dance both on1 and on2 and I feel like I literally have "more time" to styling on2.

That being said, I've seen people who dance better than I on1, and it looks beautiful and smooth.

aimerrouge said:

I think it's the timing.

I dance both on1 and on2 and I feel like I literally have "more time" to styling on2.

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I've heard this "more time" comment a number of times, and i can feel it too sometimes when I dance on2. (But I have to admit I don't dance on2 very often)

Now, 'having more time' on2 than on1 to the same track is surely a physical impossibilty (provided the tempo of the song doesn't change! ), but there must be something to it as _so_ many people say it/feel it, and not just those that dance on2 exclusively. I'm wondering if it's something to do with the fact that most of the big "hits" and all of the progression happens on either the one or the five. Do you think that if you're not actually 'stepping' on these beats, then you're body is more free to express the changes and hit's / breaks/etc.?

Second question, when dancing on2, it feels more natural to me to break forwards on the 2 rather than the more traditional break back. Bearing in mind the recent discussion about the impact of clave direction changes I'd like to ask some of the more experienced on2 dancers if this feels strange to them? In the same way it feels strange to be breaking forwards on the five to an on1 dancer.

Paou said:

Now, 'having more time' on2 than on1 to the same track is surely a physical impossibilty (provided the tempo of the song doesn't change! ), but there must be something to it as _so_ many people say it/feel it, and not just those that dance on2 exclusively. I'm wondering if it's something to do with the fact that most of the big "hits" and all of the progression happens on either the one or the five. Do you think that if you're not actually 'stepping' on these beats, then you're body is more free to express the changes and hit's / breaks/etc.?

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First let me say, I'm neither a teacher nor local superstar. This is based on me and my experience.

On1, I have to step on the 1, 3, 5 and 7. (4 steps)

On2, once you get really good, you only have to step on 2 and 6 (sometimes not even then). I'm not that good yet, but I'm working on it. :lol:

in my opinion, initially its the timing and style of both the dance and the dancer..

1 and 5 are the obvious beats in both 4 beat phrases.. 2 and 6 are subtle beats that follow.. u concentrate on the obvious beats when dancing on 1 .. on2 u take in the whole 2 set of beats musically.. which gives a sense of riding flow than highlighting the sarting beats ..

not sure if what i wrote made sense.. but for sure on2 is more challenging altho not necessarily a preference.. cause a good dancer will do it just as smooth on either counts.. cause its your style that really matters and u play it to whatever beat .. your style is dominant over the timing in other words .. personally i feel just a smooth execution wise, yet rythmically different, when i dance either..

i think there is another difference:
on2 dancers that dance on1 (really, it happens sometimes!) still have the same fluency in their dance, and still have the more jazzy footwork.

The same goes for LA dancers, that dance technically correct on2 once in a while, but still lack the feel of fluency.

Besides the timing, there is the whole different feel/style of the movement.
NY style is imo strongly influenced by jazz and jazzdance, and afro-cuban movements. this still radiates through their style, their whole bodymovement and everything, even when they dance technically sound 'on1'.

LA style on the otherhand has more 'ballroomy' feel and styling.

So it maybe that the footwork 'sec' is the same, but with the whole styling, phrasing, timing difference, it looks like a completely different dance.

it's like the difference between two professionally trained dancers performing the same choreography. One of them is a classical trained ballet dancer, the other is a trained modern or jazz dancer....
it'll look like they are doing two completely different choreographies.

aimerrouge said:

On1, I have to step on the 1, 3, 5 and 7. (4 steps)

On2, once you get really good, you only have to step on 2 and 6 (sometimes not even then). I'm not that good yet, but I'm working on it. :lol:

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:?: Don't you have to step on every beat - except the 4 and 8. Maybe step is not the right word - you need a weight transfer on 6 beats out of the 8 beats in the 2 bars of music - thats what gives you the hip motion. I don't think you would be looking very smooth steping only on 2 & 6 :?

huh I think I usually just step on the 2 and 6 and play with the other beats (unless I'm consciously establishing the basic step for a partner) so maybe that's where people get the idea of having "more time". I used to talk about that 2+ years ago when I started dancing on2, especially for spins, and I remember being frustrated with having to ignore "big hits" that occured on the 1 and 5, and also worrying about converting my footwork (which is not really learned) from on1 to on2. I would do my shines on1 then get back to the 2 when my partner grabbed me heehe

But I've found it's just a matter of feeling comfortable with anything that happens in the music, you can pretty much catch any break or interesting twist with footwork or body movement and still stay on2. It's just practice and time. In fact now I have the problem of mistakenly switching to the 2 when I'm supposed to be dancing on 1, unknowingly doing shines on2 and getting back to the 1 with my partner

anyway I think the 2 & 6 emphasis in the basic makes things look less cluttered, smoother, also the fact that the overall motion matches the key instruments like clave and conga along with upper body & hips in syncopation giving that overall look

aimerrouge said:

On1, I have to step on the 1, 3, 5 and 7. (4 steps)

On2, once you get really good, you only have to step on 2 and 6 (sometimes not even then).

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Good point!

Thinking about it though, I actually do the same kind of thing on1 as you describe on2. Once you're good enough to be able to carry the rhythm and timing and 'start' stepping again on _any_ count correctly I think you can use that to great effect in many places whether you're on1 or on2.

As a (probably confusing) on1 example, I will keep my weight on my left foot from the previous six count, kinda swivel/style my right on the 7/8 without transferring weight and then swivel/style my left foot on the 1 with some 'extra' pushing into the floor to emphasise my hips, finally transferring weight back to my right on the 3. Then maybe do some slow styling on 5,6,7 (just with ribcage/bodyroll//shoulders, weight resting on my right foot) and finally transferring my weight back to my left foot on the following 1. Sorry it's a bit confusing in text, but the point in that example is that I'll only transfer weight once (on the 3) during the whole 8 counts!

I think I tend to do this throughout the song as and when the music calls for it, skipping beats here and there, pausing, resuming, styling... etc. It's amazing how far I sometimes seem to be able to go away from 123.567. without breaking things - But actually writing it down makes me think I should ask some of my regular followers and find out if it hinders my lead. (I don't think it does, don't seem to have any problems leading what I want to) - will see tonight

I seem to see this more amongst the on2 community though, where the emphasis seems more on style, shines, and free dancing, and with on1 dancers more focus on moves/combinations/partnerwork etc.

Maybe this is the reason that people do this 'less weight transfer' thing more on2 than on1? as opposed to anything inherant in the timing of each style. Just the emphasis when learning?

Back to the point though, I think, the limiting factor is that when leading, you need to physically move you're body out the way to give room for the follow to pass you, which means stepping, which means weight transfer. And if you want good hip movement and clear leads, then the weight transfer is often essential, especially with anything derived from an open break. But on2, I guess my point was that these 'essential' weight changes happen 'in' the music, and leave the 1 and 5 free, even if leading / stepping normally.

sorry, bit of a long post there :shock:

Canadian Guy said:

aimerrouge said:

On1, I have to step on the 1, 3, 5 and 7. (4 steps)

On2, once you get really good, you only have to step on 2 and 6 (sometimes not even then). I'm not that good yet, but I'm working on it. :lol:

Click to expand...

:?: Don't you have to step on every beat - except the 4 and 8. Maybe step is not the right word - you need a weight transfer on 6 beats out of the 8 beats in the 2 bars of music - thats what gives you the hip motion. I don't think you would be looking very smooth steping only on 2 & 6 :?

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In reality all you need is a side to side weight transfer. there's nothing magical about pushing feet forward and backward

i wish I could demo, it's hard to explain in writing

A tiny bit OT, but since the discussion is about On2 dancing... I am learning Salsa On1 but Cha-cha On2. (Having never danced Salsa On2), Cha-cha On2 is a totally different experience than On1. I am impatient to learn Salsa On2 and see if the difference is as drastic. I've been raised as a musician so I really feel the music and to me the difference is dramatic in Cha-cha, but I don't know if others feel it the same way. It's like you're engulfed in the music rather than just stepping to the music. (Sorry for getting OT)

my 2c.

africana said:

Canadian Guy said:

aimerrouge said:

On1, I have to step on the 1, 3, 5 and 7. (4 steps)

On2, once you get really good, you only have to step on 2 and 6 (sometimes not even then). I'm not that good yet, but I'm working on it. :lol:

Click to expand...

:?: Don't you have to step on every beat - except the 4 and 8. Maybe step is not the right word - you need a weight transfer on 6 beats out of the 8 beats in the 2 bars of music - thats what gives you the hip motion. I don't think you would be looking very smooth steping only on 2 & 6 :?

Click to expand...

In reality all you need is a side to side weight transfer. there's nothing magical about pushing feet forward and backward

i wish I could demo, it's hard to explain in writing

Click to expand...

Yeh, tell me about being hard to explain... read my above post and end up very confused - I don't even think the 123567 side to side transfer is comepletely neccesary in CBL style on1 or on2. What is neccesary is that you're transferring weight at the right times to be able to be balanced to lead your partner effectively. And that if you don't transfer weight, it's because you're styling, and not just too lazy to keep up the basic - I think you can make it look smooth provided it's intentional... watch frankie martinez dancing, From what I remember he does it a lot.

lol for me it's also hard to tell the difference between just doing basic and styling because styling is really just dancing :!: the music makes you want to do things that fit, not just the plain-vanilla basic step. So yeah, interesting footwork requires constant weight shift but I don't really think of it in individual steps

And by the way, the best on2 leads I've seen and experienced always have a solid basic step while partnering

Paou said:

Second question, when dancing on2, it feels more natural to me to break forwards on the 2 rather than the more traditional break back. Bearing in mind the recent discussion about the impact of clave direction changes I'd like to ask some of the more experienced on2 dancers if this feels strange to them? In the same way it feels strange to be breaking forwards on the five to an on1 dancer.

Click to expand...

maybe it feels natural for follows and strange for leads? lol when I lead (not often ) it sometimes feels wrong to step forward, that's how I correct myself....it could just be the convention thing, but with some songs it feels "right" to follow convention, with others it doesn't matter much

genEus said:

A tiny bit OT, but since the discussion is about On2 dancing... I am learning Salsa On1 but Cha-cha On2. (Having never danced Salsa On2), Cha-cha On2 is a totally different experience than On1. I am impatient to learn Salsa On2 and see if the difference is as drastic. I've been raised as a musician so I really feel the music and to me the difference is dramatic in Cha-cha, but I don't know if others feel it the same way. It's like you're engulfed in the music rather than just stepping to the music. (Sorry for getting OT)

my 2c.

Click to expand...

Yes it it that's why I won't ever dance cha cha on 1 even if I have to dance it alone (actually I prefer than sometimes)

Again you start out with the cha-cha and that keeps it on2 in right in with the "ko-kom" sound. It feels amazing even if you only dance the basic with body movement, but it's slow so you can really move and play with the rhythm, savor the sabor