Molinete speed variations?

Ideally I would like the timing to be whatever I feel like, mostly driven by the size of the impulse that starts it. If I lead a big build-up, it's going to be fast all the way, until I lessen the power of the turn. Out of respect for my follower's flying legs and balance, I only do surges of up to three steps, or keep the overall momentum quite steady for a sustainable rotation.

Yes, you can lead (and follow) controlled length individual steps, at whatever pace you like that fits the music. For practice purposes, I prefer the terminology of "normal", "slow" and "really slow", as I feel followers are generally in too much of a hurry to satisfy the lead.
 
dchester said:
Sometimes, it seems like everyone has different ideas for how you are supposed to do it.

:confused:
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Why does there have to be a "how you are supposed to do it"? A moulinette is just a variantion on the walk. And like walking/ochos/whatever i think you can do it in any way that you want to do it (as long as it relates to the music).
What i like about moulinettes is that they are a great opportunity for the follower to show off. If i feel that she is setting up some single/double time to the music i try to get out of her way and enjoy getting some insight in how she hears the music.

Gssh
 
Gssh said:
Why does there have to be a "how you are supposed to do it"? A moulinette is just a variantion on the walk. And like walking/ochos/whatever i think you can do it in any way that you want to do it (as long as it relates to the music).
What i like about moulinettes is that they are a great opportunity for the follower to show off. If i feel that she is setting up some single/double time to the music i try to get out of her way and enjoy getting some insight in how she hears the music.

Gssh
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Couldn't have said it better myself (and didn't)!
 
Peaches said:
The approved way is however the leader leads it. Or, for a non-smart-alec response, I don't think there is an Approved Way.

Oh boy do I AGREE with Peaches!!! When we teach our beginner lesson at our milonga to brand new beginners I always emphasize that no matter what step or "pattern" you are doing in ATango that there is NEVER a set pattern of slows and quicks like in ballroom! Tango is always lead and followed ONE step at a time, and the leader is normally dictating what the speed of that ONE step is, even if that one step is in the middle of a 8 count basic, or a giro/moliente. I always tell our ladies to take one step that the leader leads, and if necessary take out her fan, and WAIT until he leads the next step. That step might be slow, it might be fast, OR it might be a pause.....
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MaggieB said:
I always tell our ladies to take one step that the leader leads, and if necessary take out her fan, and WAIT until he leads the next step.
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Lol. Well put!

That said... There are times, with certain leaders, when I'm in a particular mood, and when I know and am really into the music...I'll do the molinete how I want to. What can I say? Sometimes I really just want to be able to time my steps a certain way! Yeah, sure, that kinda runs afoul of the robo-giro-ing, and not letting each step be led...but sometimes I get a bit...headstrong. Sometimes, a girl just wants to drag out that first step a bit and hold it until the absolute last moment, and then let fly and catch a fun syncopation in the music. It happens.

But then I go back to following.
 
The Best Post In This Thread

kieronneedscake said:
Ideally I would like the timing to be whatever I feel like, mostly driven by the size of the impulse that starts it. If I lead a big build-up, it's going to be fast all the way, until I lessen the power of the turn. Out of respect for my follower's flying legs and balance, I only do surges of up to three steps, or keep the overall momentum quite steady for a sustainable rotation.

Yes, you can lead (and follow) controlled length individual steps, at whatever pace you like that fits the music. For practice purposes, I prefer the terminology of "normal", "slow" and "really slow", as I feel followers are generally in too much of a hurry to satisfy the lead.
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Bravo.
 
Other Honorable Mentions

This is a great topic, and has solicited more 'good' posts than many threads (IMHO).

newbie said:
The approved way is that the back step is quick. That's because it's the uncomfortable step so you want to get rid of it.
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This made me smile. I wouldn't say tha it is the "approved" way, but if there were a "quick" step, yes, this would be it. However, not because we wish to get rid of it (I understood the jest...it was great), but because it is the one that generates the moentum for the rest, non?

newbie said:
Now I've heard the same teacher explaining one day that there is no approved sequence and the follower has to follow whatever the leader leads,
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Which leads (pardon the pun) to....

Me said:
I'm sorry but I just can't stand any of this slow and quick stuff anymore, LOL. People use it all the time ....

I believe that none of the steps in molinete should be treated as faster or slower. All steps are full steps ...There is an ocho at the beginning of two of the steps and this does occupy some time, but keep in mind this ocho is also at the end of other steps. We should be spending the time at the end of that step to use our inner thighs to pull together for that ocho, and the beginning of the next step to resolve the ocho. Therefore, (for me) this makes little difference in speed of the steps that follow the ocho or precede it.
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Good post.

Steve Pastor said:
Because of the complexity of the giro, it is taught (initially) as a set pattern of steps with a set "timing".
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MOST EXCELLENT! If more persons would abandon dancing by rhythms, and learn to dance by timings, more persons would become better dancers more quickly. Wait...that would put me out of a job. Nevermind.

Steve Pastor said:
As Peaches wrote, there is no "Approved Way", when it comes to the timing.
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Match Point.
 
Steve Pastor said:
Here is an important point, however. You step and collect with each step, rather than do a simple grapevine, which involves no collecting between steps. ...
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hmm I know one teacher who used the grapevine as an exercise to teach the molinete; that a molinete is the same sequence of steps wrapped around a stationary leader; so I don't see why you wouldn't be 'collecting' for both ie feet and knees have to brush past each other in the transition from one step to another.
 
Me said:
I'm sorry but I just can't stand any of this slow and quick stuff anymore, LOL. People use it all the time in ballroom, and all it seems to cause around here is for people to clip their steps in Foxtrot.

Since clipped steps are a common problem I see in molinete, I now wonder if this is because the women are being taught to think "quick quick."

I believe that none of the steps in molinete should be treated as faster or slower. All steps are full steps taken, not chasses.
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Who says that timing them as "quick quick" means they have to be chasses?
 
Steve Pastor said:
Here is an important point, however. You step and collect with each step, rather than do a simple grapevine, which involves no collecting between steps.
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Quite! I remember when I first started out and was introduced to "the grapevine", my thought was: this is nothing like the grapevine we do in aerobics. Years later, my thought is: this is still nothing like the grapevine we do in aerobics.

As for collecting the feet in a giro - not always easy if it is led fast but still can look good.
 
Gssh said:
Why does there have to be a "how you are supposed to do it"?
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I don't think there does - which is why I started the thread, I wasn't sure.

The problem is, when you get a "Named" teacher saying something so emphatically, despite questioning, and when they back it up with a superficially-compelling rationale, it's quite convincing. Fortunately, I have you guys :)

To be fair, Damian does like to focus on the quick vs. slow stuff, and this has at least exposed me to the possibilities of using differences of timing in molinetes, so it's been a good result in the end.
 
All teachers have names.

The best of them know tango well enough to know that there are very few hard and fast rules, and rarley speak of "this is the only way", or "this is the right way".

One of things many of us like about AT is the freedom it grants us. Again, there most often isn't just one way to do things.
It can be bewildering at first, and each student of the dance has to eventually find their own way. And you know what? It's a great thing.
And, as you can probably tell, there are more than a few us who like the questions.
Keep 'em coming.
 
oF course if you look at the history of tango in the early recording it was danced at 78rpm then later on 45 rpm then 33rpm. Now it is often danced at 6.8Mbps!!
 
In reply to Angel...

Line dancers do grapevines a lot. I line dance. Nobody ever talks about bringing your feet together between each step. And nobody does. (Well, except maybe me now that I understand better how to facilitate a tight turn.)
In country western dance we have a pattern partner dance called the Horseshoe. In that one we do a grapevine, too. Once learned about collecting on each step in the molinete, and how that makes it possible to change the direction of the next step, I added it into my variations for that dance (to the delight of some women, and the frustration of others).

Collecting when following was drilled into me from the very beginning. In the moilinete, as with any movement with a lateral component, when the follower collects, there can be a split second where there is an option to move in any direction. When both feet are together, and directly under the woman's center, her axis is more likely to be clear and stable.

Obviously, the faster the motion, the shorter that interval is, and it may not exist at all.

Take one step at a time, many people tell beginners. If the woman's foot is in front of, or behind, the weighted foot when doing the molinete, she has already decided what her next step will be.

Even if the leader leads something different well into the side step that precedes the front or back step, the woman has pretty much predetermined her next step by not collecting.

"Step, collect, pivot" sort of covers it in a way (kind of like Skippy Blair's &a1&a2).

I think most of the really good female dancers collect between all of their steps. That is usually reflected in their ability to follow variations in "basic patterns".

This is not something that is easy to learn, but it's another reason I am a firm believer in learning good basics.
 
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