Heel or toe?

Heather2007 said:
Naughty, naughty, naughty DB - you named and shamed. Ha, ha, ha.
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I did. I remember stuff, you see, us North Londoners are clever that way. :tongue:

But I don't see it as "shaming" - he seemed a good teacher, he had some interesting views, and I got some useful stuff from the class. Plus, he had some lovely Xmas lights up - what more could you want? :)
 
Everytime I visit this site, I am reminded how good it is.
Here's a couple of pictures for you to consider.
http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_3search/14women.htm
Although this page is about women's technique, it clearly shows men stepping. Although most steps begin (almost of necessity) by raising the heel while the toes stay in contact with the floor, you can clearly see the men striding out so that the heel will contact the floor first as weight is transfered to the stepping foot.
Smaller steps may look more like a "toe lead" because there is no time or reason for the heel to come down first.
The steps are pretty much "natural" rather than "affected".
 
Your point is noted. I might be a wee confused re your post...

Twirly said:
I wasn't talking about "social apilado" though, but the more elegant villa urquiza, tango de salon
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...because the tango that was/is danced in Villa Urquiza is "social apilado". Further, and perhaps one will answer the other, ...

Twirly said:
Comparing this style with Nuevo, I'd say Nuevo is the one that is based on natural movement and is more casual.
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...seems a wee odd for the same reason. Nonetheless, I believe, or hope, that I understand your position based on your understandign of tango.
 
One thing I don't get about toe leads is how you can use them and still "roll through" the foot as you walk forward? Am I being dense here?
 
Dave Bailey said:
One thing I don't get about toe leads is how you can use them and still "roll through" the foot as you walk forward? Am I being dense here?
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Not dense. Starting with toe of leading foot pointed forward and away from supporting leg, slide leading foot ahead at the same time pushing off with back leg. (Original) leading foot touch down with toe, sole then heel. Think ice-skating. Me: toe first (sometimes) when following but never when leading. That said ex-ballet dancer David Benitez (teaches in London) uses a lot of toe-leads when dancing and reminds me of a beautiful little angel sitting atop a 3-tier wedding cake.
 
This sort of sums it up.
When most men do toe leads in AT they look like a beautiful little angel sitting atop a 3-tier wedding cake, (or, usually, something worse).
Thanks, Heather, for capturing the essence of it.
 
Heather2007 said:
Not dense. Starting with toe of leading foot pointed forward and away from supporting leg, slide leading foot ahead at the same time pushing off with back leg. (Original) leading foot touch down with toe, sole then heel. Think ice-skating.
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I have tried this now, and it works OK I think, but it seems to be inherently impossible to roll forward through the foot using that method, which I thought was a good technique for smoothness?

Also, I seem to have a tendency to bend my knees a bit with a toe lead, which is Bad of course.

I think I'll stick with heel leads to be honest.
 
Dave Bailey said:
I have tried this now, and it works OK I think, but it seems to be inherently impossible to roll forward through the foot using that method, which I thought was a good technique for smoothness?

Also, I seem to have a tendency to bend my knees a bit with a toe lead, which is Bad of course.

I think I'll stick with heel leads to be honest.
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Most guys (admittedly the advance one) that have led me vary between toe first and heel first as well as straight legs and bent knees (bent knees work better I feel in the fast/funny/clowny milonga stylie). Like everything - whatever feels good and comfy for you and your partner (and this no matter what Teacher says).
 
Heather2007 said:
Like everything - whatever feels good and comfy for you and your partner (and this no matter what Teacher says).
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Yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that I should just ignore every teacher, and work this stuff out either by myself or with you lot :)

Or, possibly I just encounter a lot of rubbish teachers.
 
Dave Bailey said:
Yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that I should just ignore every teacher, and work this stuff out either by myself or with you lot :)

Or, possibly I just encounter a lot of rubbish teachers.
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No, learn everything that is taught and in time with more confidence and a little more zip and a little more zap with dashings of sizzle and sass, you'll be developing your own style and so will be undoing much that has been done and even better, creating your own.

And dare I remind all: the teacher was once a student and in the eyes of the Universe will forever be. :rolleyes:
 
Dave Bailey said:
Yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that I should just ignore every teacher, and work this stuff out either by myself or with you lot :)
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Nah, learn everything, and keep what is useful for you :) . Thats why i love discussions here - i try very hard to take any teachers word as the gospel when i am with them, and to master what they offer. Dance forums is part of my inner dialogue where i work on the question what my tango is like.

Gssh

Bruce Lee said:
In JKD, one does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum.
It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation.
Art is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method, the less the opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom. Though they play an important role in the early stage, the techniques should not be too mechanical, complex or restrictive. If we cling blindly to them, we shall eventually become bound by their limitations.
Remember, you are expressing the techniques and not doing the techniques. If somebody attacks you, your response is not Technique No.1, Stance No. 2, Section 4, Paragraph 5. Instead you simply move in like sound and echo, without any deliberation. It is as though when I call you, you answer me, or when I throw you something, you catch it. It's as simple as that - no fuss, no mess. A martial artist who drills exclusively to a set pattern of combat is losing his freedom. He is actually becoming a slave to a choice pattern and feels that the pattern is the real thing. It leads to stagnation because the way of combat is never based on personal choice and fancies, but constantly changes from moment to moment, and the disappointed combatant will soon find out that his 'choice routine' lacks pliability. There must be a 'being' instead of a 'doing' in training. One must be free. Instead of complexity of form, there should be simplicity of expression.
To me, the extraordinary aspect of martial arts lies in its simplicity. The easy way is also the right way, and martial arts is nothing at all special; the closer to the true way of martial arts, the less wastage of expression there is.
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject. Actually, he keeps chiselling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Thus, contrary to other styles, being wise in Jeet Kune-Do doesn't mean adding more; it means to minimize, in other words to hack away the unessential.
It is not daily increase but daily decrease; hack away the unessential.
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