When is a spin turn not a spin turn?

gclarke

There are precious few tools that we can use when we first learn to dance (videos, books, the advice and perspective of an advanced partner, instructor, or knowledgeable DFer...)so I can understand your desire to find and root out knowledge and information.

What we see on a video is a result of minutiae that doesn't necessarily conform to our (beginner's) idea of how such movement is accomplished--hence the cautionary advice others have posted.

Books (particularly the ones like the Standard Technique by the ISTD) lend themselves well to helping us learn and become better dancers and can be good tools if we are taught how to properly use them first, otherwise it simply leads a beginner to more confusion--again, hence the cautionary advice.

Just another perspective you might want to consider.

Meanwhile, to answer your question:

As in any figure, a spin turn is always a spin turn while its main elements are present and recognizable.
When adjustments/modifications are imposed upon a specified or published figure (to gain better movement, expression, or better floorcraft), then the name is commonly given a descriptive modifier.

For example:
Overturned Natural Spin Turn; Running Open Natural Spin Turn; Underturned Natural Spin Turn; etc...





m

Me said:

Again, I believe you need to leave the books alone, as many others have advised as well.

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Different people learn in different ways. I started reading The Ballroom Technique quite early, and it was very helpful to me. I see no signs that it's interfering with gclarke's dancing - just that she doesn't know how to use it well enough yet to not need to ask the questions here to clarify. People with analytical minds often find it helpful very early on. If that's not you, that's fine, but she's not arguing with her teacher about degrees of turn, or trying to follow "the book" to the exclusion of following or paying attention to what's going on around her - she's just seeking another source of information. There's nothing wrong with that. If she gets frustrated with it, she can give it up, but I don't think it's interfering with her learning.

Thanks everyone.

Just back from an evening out for hubby's birthday so a bit too tiddly to absorb the details.

Tomorrow is another day and I will read the posts again.

Off to bed with a Baileys now.
:cheers:

The only thing that I have to say about videos is that just be careful as to what you buy. I looked online when I first started, and I couldn't tell the good videos from the bad ones. Now I can, so I'm glad that I didn't spend money on things that I didn't really need. But I do agree that we do learn different ways. It's just that, I find that with me since I am very analytical, the best thing is to just ask my instructor questions. I can read this forum and watch videos when I'm bored and what have you, but it doesn't make sense to me until I'm actually taught the moves I need to work on. And he knows that I'm analytical, so he knows how to teach me. I may bore him with specific questions, but I can tell a difference in my dancing when I do so though.

While I understand and respect Me's perspective, another thing to remember is that we all learn differently -- some of us need to read, some of us need to observe and freezeframe things, etc. Yes, the danger of books and DVDs too early is that they can be very confusing and of limited utility, but it doesn't hurt to start using them, IMHO. Just remember that it will be easier later to go to the book and say "how much rotation does a spin turn get?" than it is now to say "how do you do a spin turn?"

lol...everything is confusing at first...I don't know how many times I have had the epiphany, "oh...THAT's what he meant way back when"...

Heh...if I had a nickel for every time I've thought that...

I wanted to encourage gclarke to be very generous with compliments towards her husband. His learning to lead the two of you out of the logjam or beginners all stuck in the corner is going to take a lot of floor flexibility. When I was first learning, I was shocked how easy it is to dance right into the corner and be stuck between the swing dancers and the bathroom. When you are beginning, it is amazingly difficult just to backup from where I could get us stuck.

I mention this because so many of the threads going right now are about fine tuning details like 5/8th vs 7/8th turns. The truth is the amount of over or under rotation is totally dependent upon making it around the dance floor without hitting anyone.

That means your partner will have to lead what he can. If you assume he can only lead 1/3 of what you did in class, that doesn't give you a lot of options getting around the floor. As a guy, I was thrilled each time we made it around the floor with even kind of reasonable form.

fascination said:

lol...everything is confusing at first...I don't know how many times I have had the epiphany, "oh...THAT's what he meant way back when"...

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I've said this many a time myself. Many many times actually...

I wholeheartedly agree with G's methodology of pouring over books and videos. I have tons of dance videos, dvds, manuals, etc. that I've collected over the past three years. It's very true that at first I didn't know how to read the ISTD manual, and even though I was watching the videos I didn't quite get all the detail on footwork/technique. However, as the years have progressed I found I was able to read the manual and actually understand it, and also recall things I had seen in the various videos I'd watched once I'd reached the point in my lessons where I'd learned enough to know what they were talking about.

I also know right where she's coming from as far as "how much rotation, etc." I used to think the very same thing. Experience has taught me that yes, there is an amount specified, but in practice that amount can vary with the situation. My advice: learn the exact amount just to KNOW that you know it, and store it for reference. During your serious practice sessions, go with that amount. During your social dances, feel free to experiment. Play around with it, and try not to get too caught up in exact details in those situations. I know the speed limit on the interstate is 65, and when a cop's around you can be sure I'll do exactly that. When one's not around, though, I'll be doing 75

Keep in mind dancing is still about having fun. You can be serious and precise when the situation demands it, but have fun with it whenever you get the opportunity.

Thanks again everyone.

It's the little things that make the difference sometimes. Unless some-one actually tell you these things it's quite bewildering.

I'm amazed at how I think there are soooo many steps we have learned only to see when I get it down on paper or straight in my head they are almagamations of the same things.

I find these threads so useful. At the time they just make little things fall into place then later I come back and reread to take on board a bit more detail.

And I will try and remember about encouraging Dave. We're at the stage now where we can get round the floor - just - but as mentioned we often find we're too far into the corner or similar.

In another thread it was mentioned about a man have a series of sounds to signal to his partner what was coming next. It had me in stitches but a little bit of it reminded me of either Dave or I muttering 'lockstep' which is our lead into a spin turn in the quick step.

That came after a discussion about why we got too far into the corner to turn. The first time I said it was an experiment which we continued about 3 times round the floor. Then we got the hang of it and stopped. Next time we boxed ourselves into the corner Dave grinned and said 'your fault - you never said lockstep'.

Thanks to this forum I can laugh at things like that but at the same time remind myself that Dave has to learn to lead and I have to learn to follow, tough as that may be for both of us.

gclarke said:

d 'your fault - you never said lockstep'.

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Meh...don't sweat it, it's a process. For now you're sharing some verbal cues, but if you keep at it you'll start to communicate better with your bodies.

You are such a dedicated student, gay.

Gorme said:

Spin Turn only has 3 steps. It's frequently preceded by a Natural Turn hence the 6 steps. That one would be called a Natural Spin Turn. There are many possibilities that you can do after the Spin Turn instead of the one that you mentioned. So to answer your question, 3 steps.

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This one looks like fun I hadn't actually equated the 1st 3 steps with the Natural Turn.

I sort of grasped that people were going to refer to the 3 steps as being the actual turn even though the books quote 6 and some places on the net quote 9 including the 'change steps' after the turn.

I am finding it intriguing as I delve more and suddenly realise how much repetition there is as opposed to me thinking it was all new stuff (regardless of what it's called).

The more I read and delve the more it starts to seem very logical to be facing/backing the wall/centre at given times whereas to begin with it seemed quite a random assortment of variables.

From a beginners point of view when thinking about it or jotting it down, do you suppose it would be best to think of it as 9 steps or to break it into it's parts?

I'd recommend to keep up what you're doing G, as long as it doesn't burn you out. Research and study, even when what you dig up, often doesn't make senes. But it leads to more questions, which you can seek good answers to. This is how we often learn on our own--we have to get a little dirty first, before we dig up something valuable!

gclarke said:

From a beginners point of view when thinking about it or jotting it down, do you suppose it would be best to think of it as 9 steps or to break it into it's parts?

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Since you're doing so much studying on your own, I'd recommend breaking it down into parts. When you get into more difficult patterns, you'll realize it's made up of steps you already know. It has just been reorganized, repackaged and given a different name.

gclarke said:

Dave has to learn to lead and I have to learn to follow, tough as that may be for both of us.

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...or as long as you can backlead and he can backfollow...