Musicality in AT / Vals / Milonga etc
- Thread starter Dave Bailey
- Start date
Of course when I say something is "undancable" I should clarify that I mean it is very hard to dance socially to it with someone who is not a regular partner and when neither of you know the music by heart.
In other words, the majority of what happens at a milonga.
I don't believe ANY music is truly "undanceable" if you are given a chance to choreograph it and are not limited to a specific genre or style of dancing. There have most certainly been stage performances using Piazzola. Modern ballet or dance companies can do pieces to just about anything. And some stuff that doesn't lend itself well to dancing is quite exquisitely suited to fgure skating routines, even as improv.
But all that is a far cry from an unknown piece of music being "danceable" at a social dance with a complete stranger.
I agree... as long as they take the time to learn and understand basic floorcraft. Then, what's the harm?
As to the actual dancing, some of them are well aware of their limitations. An unfortunate number actually think they are good simply because of how long they have been plugging away at it, and relate to the followers accordingly. That's annoying.
Of the three I prefer tango, because waltz and milonga both tend to have a driving beat that encourage constant movement (or at least stepping). slow milongas and waltzes are excluded from that judgment of course.
i think the piece of musicaliaty i really enjoy milking is the tension/release that peaches mentioned earlier, so even though i try to be musical in other ways that can be included in waltz and milonga, i prefer tango because that's where i can really get the tension/release piece of it.
nuevo i also dislike because much of it has the constant bass line. and the stuff that doesn't is often too melodic and w/o any sort of rhythm line at all, and that just gets boring to me.
my favorite music is where i can switch easily between a lyrical line or a rhythmic line, and switch between snappy/quick/lively movements vs. gooey/mellower movements. that's why i love canaro and disarli and biagi and... well, most of the classic orchestras, because they lend themselves to that.
i think the piece of musicaliaty i really enjoy milking is the tension/release that peaches mentioned earlier, so even though i try to be musical in other ways that can be included in waltz and milonga, i prefer tango because that's where i can really get the tension/release piece of it.
nuevo i also dislike because much of it has the constant bass line. and the stuff that doesn't is often too melodic and w/o any sort of rhythm line at all, and that just gets boring to me.
my favorite music is where i can switch easily between a lyrical line or a rhythmic line, and switch between snappy/quick/lively movements vs. gooey/mellower movements. that's why i love canaro and disarli and biagi and... well, most of the classic orchestras, because they lend themselves to that.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
All fair to good posts. Also, a good post from Peaches.
Understanding what you mean by musicality, we all must know that this is not a fixed entity. Musicality is as individual as the dancer. It is based upon the dancer'/s' background, interest/s, education, and feeling/s. To say that one type of music lends itself to musicality more than another is not applicable as a generality because what one does not hear in one song might be very prevalent to someone else, or what one might not be able to do to one song, another might be able to do very well.
If you are iterested in improving your ability to, as you say, interject musicality into your dancing, begin with a study (regardless of how in depth) of music appreciation. This will present moods, phrases, breaths, and things that are in the music that the average dancer might not listen to/for.
Understanding what you mean by musicality, we all must know that this is not a fixed entity. Musicality is as individual as the dancer. It is based upon the dancer'/s' background, interest/s, education, and feeling/s. To say that one type of music lends itself to musicality more than another is not applicable as a generality because what one does not hear in one song might be very prevalent to someone else, or what one might not be able to do to one song, another might be able to do very well.
If you are iterested in improving your ability to, as you say, interject musicality into your dancing, begin with a study (regardless of how in depth) of music appreciation. This will present moods, phrases, breaths, and things that are in the music that the average dancer might not listen to/for.
I agree with Angel, I think that musicality is less about which types of music inherently lend themselves to a particular interpretation, and more about the rush you get from dancing to music you love. The more familiarity you have with a variety of different tango artists, the broader this repetoire will be. I would say this is especially true of tango, because 'interpreting the pauses', for example, requires some previous idea of where these are. This is potentially less of an issue in vals and milonga due to the more regular rhythms. I generally find that at a milonga that when a song comes on that I know well and love, it doesn't matter who I am dancing with - the music just kind of takes over. Then it's just a matter of being up on the basic dance skills to be able to follow where that feeling leads.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Mmm, no doubt that this would help, but I don't believe it to be necessary. Part of the spontaniety of the music and of the dance are these pauses. The main point of our (you agreed with the earlier post) views is that musicality is not defined by the music, but by the feeling that ones gets from it. Interpreting, or reacting to, an unexpected or unfamiliar pause could be a huge part of musicality.
Exactly what I am saying above.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
So I’ve been thinking a bit more about musicality (only a little bit more, since it was on the train, and I fell asleep pretty quickly), and about what IMO seems to set apart the really great leaders from the average ones in terms of musicality, and I’ve come to the conclusion that a lot of it has to do with things other than the steps. I know, I know, this sounds completely stupid and obvious, but bear with me. (I’m also sort of thinking this out as I go along, so bear with me even more.)
I was thinking about this in terms of playing with the building/release of tension and the use of pauses in particular. Aside from the issue of how a leader fits steps, movements, rise and fall, or pauses with the music; irrespective of the style that’s being danced; irrespective of the quality of movement or quality of the connection… One thing that seemingly very few leaders do (or can do?) is play with the tension of their bodies. I mean, it’s one thing to pause in steps and movement when tension is building in the music, but it’s quite another to feel that building and…coiling, almost, is the term I want to use…in a partner’s body. Or, conversely, to feel that tension release and feel a partner’s body go all “gooey” and fluid and flowing. It strikes me that all kinds of emotion can be conveyed this way. Perhaps it’s projecting, but it’s almost as if I can feel “angry” or “romantic” or “sad” coming from a partner.
Similar and related to this is the idea of playing with momentum. This is something I’ve really only ever felt with my teacher and one other leader. But there’s an interesting sense of almost like being on a roller coaster or some such, going from one peak to another. It’s an odd way of controlling motion and energy from one pause to the next, and I can feel all of this…energy…building… … …and then it becomes unleashed into movement, which then stops, but the energy keeps flowing. I swear it’s like I can feel the momentum flow up from the floor through his body and into his shoulders. It’s like the energy of a pendulum—amazing.
I don’t know just how it’s done (although I’m pretty sure I can do it myself), but think it involves breathing and tensing of various muscles. I’ve only ever felt it in a few leaders—a couple of teachers, and a couple of other “regular” dancers. Perhaps it is a style thing, come to think of it. I haven’t felt this much with the most traditional of dancers, but I can think of no reason why it couldn’t be incorporated with the most simple of steps. It’s just an incredible use of tension and movement which is incredibly musical, and yet virtually no one seems to use or think about. So many discussions of musicality focus on steps and movement and it’s relation to the music…but I don’t really recall discussions on the use of energy within the body…and, yet, it adds SO MUCH.
Eh…I’m not making much sense, not even to myself. Sorry ‘bout that. I just don’t know how to explain what it is I’m trying to say, really. Am I making sense to anyone out there, or can anyone explain things better, or shed more light on this? It’s something I’d really like to explore more.
I was thinking about this in terms of playing with the building/release of tension and the use of pauses in particular. Aside from the issue of how a leader fits steps, movements, rise and fall, or pauses with the music; irrespective of the style that’s being danced; irrespective of the quality of movement or quality of the connection… One thing that seemingly very few leaders do (or can do?) is play with the tension of their bodies. I mean, it’s one thing to pause in steps and movement when tension is building in the music, but it’s quite another to feel that building and…coiling, almost, is the term I want to use…in a partner’s body. Or, conversely, to feel that tension release and feel a partner’s body go all “gooey” and fluid and flowing. It strikes me that all kinds of emotion can be conveyed this way. Perhaps it’s projecting, but it’s almost as if I can feel “angry” or “romantic” or “sad” coming from a partner.
Similar and related to this is the idea of playing with momentum. This is something I’ve really only ever felt with my teacher and one other leader. But there’s an interesting sense of almost like being on a roller coaster or some such, going from one peak to another. It’s an odd way of controlling motion and energy from one pause to the next, and I can feel all of this…energy…building… … …and then it becomes unleashed into movement, which then stops, but the energy keeps flowing. I swear it’s like I can feel the momentum flow up from the floor through his body and into his shoulders. It’s like the energy of a pendulum—amazing.
I don’t know just how it’s done (although I’m pretty sure I can do it myself), but think it involves breathing and tensing of various muscles. I’ve only ever felt it in a few leaders—a couple of teachers, and a couple of other “regular” dancers. Perhaps it is a style thing, come to think of it. I haven’t felt this much with the most traditional of dancers, but I can think of no reason why it couldn’t be incorporated with the most simple of steps. It’s just an incredible use of tension and movement which is incredibly musical, and yet virtually no one seems to use or think about. So many discussions of musicality focus on steps and movement and it’s relation to the music…but I don’t really recall discussions on the use of energy within the body…and, yet, it adds SO MUCH.
Eh…I’m not making much sense, not even to myself. Sorry ‘bout that. I just don’t know how to explain what it is I’m trying to say, really. Am I making sense to anyone out there, or can anyone explain things better, or shed more light on this? It’s something I’d really like to explore more.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Dude, check your caps lock. 
Oh, thank god I made sense to someone. I swear to god, I feel half-crazy for writing half of it, because I'm not generally a "feel-y" type of person, definitely am not one for imagery, and I've really got no clue what it is I'm really feeling.
Ah, it would be so nice to live around the corner from an AT leader. And one who gets this idea, no less. I keep telling DH that one of these days I'm going to take a traveling vacation to visit all the various D-F AT leaders, so I can dance with you all.
Oh, thank god I made sense to someone. I swear to god, I feel half-crazy for writing half of it, because I'm not generally a "feel-y" type of person, definitely am not one for imagery, and I've really got no clue what it is I'm really feeling.
Ah, it would be so nice to live around the corner from an AT leader. And one who gets this idea, no less. I keep telling DH that one of these days I'm going to take a traveling vacation to visit all the various D-F AT leaders, so I can dance with you all.
I think it makes a lot of sense, but I also think its not something that can be taught or learned, even by breaking down the mechanics or physiology of what's happening.
I think its merely what happens when you have people who are natural dancers... who have dance deep in their soul. Its what makes some performers (of any type of dance) more exciting to watch than others even if another dancer has more perfect technique. These people ARE the dance. They don't DO the dance. You can't separate where they end and the dance begins. Its all one.
Add to that the concept of "having tango" which is a completely separate thing from being a dancer. Having tango has to do with the connection to the partner because "tango" isn't the dance... its the relationship.
So if you have a truly gifted dancer who also has tango... WOW. Its probably what you are feeling. But I don't think it can be taught. You can make people aware of it, but some people will never have it just as some people will never be able to paint/ sculpt/ write/ act/ invent the next big thing/ do theoretical physics/ whatever.
A great teacher can bring out the best of what a student can be, and can bring out hidden talent, but can't create it from scratch. I believe everyone is creative. But I don't believe that everyone has a natural talent for EVERY form of creation.
kieronneedscake
New Member
Tension and release. Not an easy thing to find, seeing as most of us range from tense to very tense to stiff as a board. How comfortable you have to be to use intentional tension to launch a series of steps.
Some of the good walking technique cultured by all the stuff in the Tango Walk thread helps you do this when moving, but it does not help you modulate your embrace and bodily torsion to do the same thing. I only get a taste of this aspect of the dance when partnered with someone spirited who uses tensions either in reaction to mine or the music. I think this is one of the magic ingredients for transcendental tango.
Some of the good walking technique cultured by all the stuff in the Tango Walk thread helps you do this when moving, but it does not help you modulate your embrace and bodily torsion to do the same thing. I only get a taste of this aspect of the dance when partnered with someone spirited who uses tensions either in reaction to mine or the music. I think this is one of the magic ingredients for transcendental tango.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Agreed, and agreed.
I haven't been able to do this with my own body if my partner isn't doing it. It's like I need to play against something, and if the guy is just doing things with no change to the tone of his body, then I can't figure out how to do it with mine. Any help or suggestions out there?
