From Latin/Swing to Argentine Tango - Help!

LindyKeya said:
First off, the "just forget everything you know about ballroom" comments aren't terribly helpful.
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Yes, I think it's OTT to say that.

However, there's some truth in the sentiments, in that knowledge of other dance forms is a double-edged sword. And it can be hard work deciding what you can "port" and what you should forget.
 
LindyKeya said:
.

My original complaint wasn't "That's not how it's done in ballroom," but rather "That's not what I've witnessed (in my admittedly limited experience seeing) Argentine Tango." Moving on.



Okay, now that we're all refining terminology, the position he physically put me in (that is still bothering my back) was not straight and forward as Peaches mentions above - it was forward and forward. Imagine taking a standard (straight) posture, and reversing completely - so instead of shoulders down and back, they are up and forward. Instead of the lower back curving forward and then back, curving back then forward, with even the ribcage pulling back (not just closed, back). (And this was not just how it felt, I saw it in the mirror.) See posture-exercises.blogspot.com/2008/07/bad-posture-number-3-of-4-flat-back.html for an image (except with the weight more over the balls of the feet).
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Fair enough- but if you don't mind my saying, I think it would be next to impossible to know after 1 lesson or maybe having seem some tango danced how to arrive at what you thought you were seeing.

There are many things especially in tango that can visually look like something and you think you understand how it is arrived at, but then you find out it was something different. (Like a barrida- it looks like follows foot is being dragged on the floor- but it is an illusion.)

I think that is to some degreee what is going on here regarding posture and what you think you have seen people do versus what they may actually be doing and may not even be able to articulate to you.

As a direct example...when I first was attempting to learn close embrace, my teacher at the time tried to teach it to me based on a visual reference. Unfortunately, the visual reference she was trying to have me copy caused me to engage muscles that ended up hurting my back and so I though to myself "screw that!". Later on, I worked on close embrace again and found out which muscles ACTUALLY needed to be engaged after more lessons with other teachers, but again it was not because they told me which muslces to use, just what they were feeling. The posture they all kept moving me to when I looked in the mirror gave me a similar look to the posture the original teacher tried to explain with a visual reference, but actually was arrived at through a different set of muscles entirely.

I would not have figured it out based solely on looking at someone else's posture, I needed to feel it from the inside of the embrace and it took quite a bit of work and definitely more than one lesson to understand what I was actually being asked to do.
 
LindyKeya said:
Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?
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Yes, you are correct on this (at least according to me).

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LindyKeya said:
Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?
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This may be a bit more difficult to explain with words. When the follower feels the intention (or lead), she responds by moving her foot back. Initially she extends back as much as is comfortable. Now when the leader starts moving his torso (and thus so does the follower), the follower will be capable of extending her foot back even more, if it is needed. The trick is that it depends on how much it seems to her that the leader wants her to step (based on how far he goes). They both step down (or change weight) on the beat. The timing of when he moves into the space (that you created with your free foot), is what lets you know what beat to change weight on.

A good exercise is for the leader to give you intention to move your free foot, and then pull back, which then should cause your foot to return. It's a good drill to see how by varying the amount (and direction (back and/or side movements)) of the intention, that it can influence what your foot does (move back and forth, or even draw circles), without ever doing a weight change. The trick is that everyone is a little different, so you sort of have to re-calibrate with every partner.
 
There are some nice walking passes in these routines. Notice how this woman's leg looks nicely extended even if she doesn't take a large step. Its not about how big the step is, but how purposeful and elongated you make it by the way you use the whole leg and hip. Notice also that despite having incredibly high arches, she does get her heel down and only appears to be up on her toes because she dances in very high heels. (I can't dance in shoes like that) This couple dances primarily BA social tango. These routines are "jazzed up" (despite not being flashy) for performance. He would never do some of these moves this way in a milonga, but notice how much they do circular patterns, which are very important dancing in crowded BA milongas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz61J3xgJ0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7_dmSwkLRQ&feature=related
 
Originally Posted by LindyKeya
First off, the "just forget everything you know about ballroom" comments aren't terribly helpful.


Originally posted by Dave Bailey
Yes, I think it's OTT to say that.
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Hi DB
Sorry, I don't agree with you at least at the macro level (and cetainly when beginning at AT) although at the micro level, as you progress, some individual techniques learned in ballroom may help.

This is my thinking.

I assume we are agreed that the Latin side has very little in common with AT, except maybe the upper body isolation exercises that some people practise in Salsa.

Looking at ballroom I feel that the main techiques are as follows:

1 Rise and fall
2 Surges in momentum/driving from the foot of the leading leg
3 Sweeping head movements from the follower
4 Connection from the lower body
5 Leaders giving an intention from the whole body and by lifting the frame of the follower
6 Learning patterns to add to the basic step pattern
7 Heel leads

Whereas in AT we aim for the reverse in 1, 2 and 3, a body connection through the chest in 4 and intention through the chest and minimal body lift and only in specific circumstances in 5 and hopefully unrehearsed lead and follow with no use of patterns other that the basic in 6 and heel leads are rare in 7.

Having said that on the micro level some techniques learned in BR may help with AT.

- A loose leg from the hip
- Movement of the leg from the hip
- understanding pressure from the lead coming through the body
- balance
- generally moving with a partner in close proximity
- allowing pressure from the lead to reflect in the leg rather than frame collapse

are some things that come to mind.
 
It looks like their in a middle of a lunge in the middle of a canyengue?
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One question I thought of asking LindyKeya was, was that posture that was foisted on you canyenge like. But, given that she is just getting into this I tryied to find something to demonstrate what canyenge like is, I came across this.

Note the caption in French. I think this is one form of early tango in France.
Here is a link to the rest of this small collection.
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/imagenes/postales/postales.asp
It's supposed to be the kind that had been "cleaned up" to make it more acceptable to the upper and middle classes. Still, there is that canyenge look. BTW leaning back, or leaning forward for a corte was quite common then.
Not a good example of what we teach people now a days as "Argentine Tango".
 
ant said:
Sorry, I don't agree with you at least at the macro level (and cetainly when beginning at AT) although at the micro level, as you progress, some individual techniques learned in ballroom may help.
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I think it depends on how much BR you've done, and to what level, and to what ends. If you've just learnt a series of dance-specific conventions, patterns, and movements designed primarily for visual impact, then yes.

But I don't know enough BR to have an informed opinion...
 
I think Melina and Detlef explain the posture very well in this video, although I'm not sure if it will answer your specific question. It's in French, but I've posted a full translation here. Although given previous dance experience, you might still find it helpful without necessarily reading my translation (which Detlef was kind enough to review and correct).

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mshedgehog said:
I think Melina and Detlef explain the posture very well in this video, although I'm not sure if it will answer your specific question. It's in French, but I've posted a full translation here. Although given previous dance experience, you might still find it helpful without necessarily reading my translation (which Detlef was kind enough to review and correct).

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I love them! I'll have to look at your translation, though I was able to make out a good portion of what they said. I have that little diddy bookmarked in youtube for myself.
 
Was going to address this earlier, seems more appropriate now.

Ms HedgeHog, nice work.

M: and a bit further up, the knees stay relaxed, we want to be able to move them, but we won't dance with bent knees, the legs should be straight, but relaxed. A bit further up again, the pelvis rests in a natural position, it's also relaxed. The pelvis is the heaviest part of the body and that should be relaxed and sinking towards the ground.

D: That is, you leave the pelvis in a natural position, you don't do things like this, you leave the pelvis parallel with the ground, and keep the whole of the lower body very relaxed.
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But...
We learn to walk and stand, as I have read, by trial and error.
Look at how many people walk and stand "naturally" with really bad posture.
I'd been told many, many times in my life to stand up straight and suck in my stomach. Know what? Nobody, nobody, explained it in a way that allowed me to "get it".

"When we are new to the dance, we are tempted to straighten our knees and pull our pelvis back. This causes us to disconnect and/or hyperextend our lower back. A good embrace is one where the knees relax and the pelvis is dropped and connected to our partner."
This is all I could find in the class notes from instructor Steven Payne.
He must have had use do exercises where we rotated our pelvis back and forth, up and down. Don't remember if we watched this in the mirrors, or if I did that at home, but once the connection was made between the pelvis, my lower back, and my constantly protruding stomach and butt, I got it. (course my butt stills "protrudes", but it is what it is and it ain't going nowhere)

Understanding the anatomy of the pelvis, and how it works is very helpful in teaching "good posture", me thinks.
 
To the OP:

Find a teacher that can answer to all of your questions, whether he/she knows or not about other dances. he/she should be able to convey the principles in a way. But you need to drop the attitude. Maybe you should attend some milongas while sitting and see who you like to see dancing and ask them about who they learn with, etc. AT is about the journey, not about getting good and getting medals. nobody really has unforgettable dances with people with that attitude...

People mention a lot the forward lean but that is more true if you're dancing close. In open, you're not really leaning much most of time, watch some videos from the best in open and close and compare.
 
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