From Latin/Swing to Argentine Tango - Help!

Legs should be moving before body. That's not a mark against your teacher (his teaching maybe, but I'm not commenting on that), it's how it should be done.

She was responding to what I wrote that HE can't step forward with his feet prior to moving his body forward to initiate (and indicate) the lead. If he is doing that, then IMO it IS a mark against him.

Your statement is true for HER, moving backwards, not for him as the leader, which is what I believe she was referring to in response to my post.
 
You can be both straight (good posture, good spinal alignment) and forward (weight forward). In fact, you should be. It's not a contradiction in AT terms.

Yes... like the \ key is both straight and forward. That's the problem with the word "straight" it can mean both "straight up and down" and "not bent"
 
Lindakeya--I have so much to say in response to your posts, but no time in which to say it.

Bottom line: This is a completely separate dance, you know nothing about it going in, so stop trying to say that you're thinking things can't be right because of X, Y, or Z. This is totally separate. Don't compare it to ballroom. Don't compare it to latin. I know nothing about Balboa, but I'd suggest not comparing it to that, either.

<snippet>

Clear your mind of how you think things should be. Accept the dance on its own terms.

I have to agree with Peaches on this...

<snippet> ... You probably need to not associate what you know with ballroom with AT. It isn't going to help you. (I danced ballroom for years, and also did competition and had much to unlearn when I made the complete switch to AT.)

I am in this boat with Peaches and bastet.

I too was once a ballroom dancer. In hindsight (when I was learning AT), I had similar concerns such as yourself. I literally wasted a year trying to transpose my competitive BR experience with my AT by trying to equate lessons and techniques from one to the other. I sincerely thought that my previous BR experience would breeze me through. It did not. Looking back, it was counter-productive.

AT is diametrically opposed to BR in posture, lead, rhythm, music, etc., etc., It is a different dance all together, and should be approached with an open mind as a beginner. Had I done this when I first started AT, I would have saved a year's worth of aggravation.

My turning point was seeing myself dancing AT on video tape. In my mind, I looked good. BR training with AT steps, and figures... It looked goofy and laughable. It was neither elegant nor pleasant to watch. Big square ballroom frame, good top line, heel leads, steps that were distinctly AT... didn't work. I have friends who are former national latin/rhythm champions. I dance AT with them, and they don't feel right. Neither do they look right on video.

We looked like those silly people in Dancing with the stars doing Argentine Tango... Bad, bad, bad.

I literally had to clear my mind, and unlearn BR to improve my AT and get it right. But then again, I'm one of those people who can only learn and do one thing at a time.
 
@ "Legs should be moving before body.."

Sorry for doubling. That is what I meant with the term "projecting steps".

OD
 
yes and yes...follows haven't really learned to 'connect" in an AT fashion (among other things) and the beginning leads usual biggest problem is learning to come forward enough to give "presence" to the follow and how to initate with the torso. Most move their legs and don't think about torso initiation, which of course, doesn't help the follows learn to connect and feel the lead for a leg extension....round and round....

Yes, and since she's likely to get stepped on this way, she reacts by scooting out of the way in an abrupt fashion worsening the "she's there, then she's not" thing.

And the leaders, in fear of stepping on her continue to move their legs first but attempt to avoid her by waddling in a wide stance stepping outside her feet rather than directly into her. Then all she feels is a side to side movement, doesn't know where to go, and gets stepped on anyway.

Really, its amazing that anyone ever comes back for more given how awkward the first lessons are! (especially for a dance that's supposed to be "natural" and "just walking" ;))
 
In leading you to step backwards (with him stepping forwards), in my opinion:
1) The leader indicates his intention by leaning/moving forward slightly. (depending on the teacher, the lead comes from the chest, frame, core, or body). The movement should not be initiated by the arms or hands.
2) The follower responds by moving her free foot back, but without doing a weight change yet.
3) The leader moves into the space that was created by the follower. (But some people say the leader's foot moves first, while others say the body goes first. IMO, this is a style preference.)
4) When the leader's body moves to complete the step, he brings her (or the follower's body moves) with him.
5) The weight change for both of them happens together on the beat, which completes the step.
.

If I'm understanding what you are trying to say, the stylistic difference comes in part 3, but only if part 1 was done correctly.

#3 doesn't REPLACE 1 and 2.

In other words, in #3, the leader moves either his body or foot into the space created for him by the correct execution of 1&2. If he hasn't done 1&2, there is no space.

Just wanted to make that clear for the OP, in case she interpreted your post to mean that INITIATING the lead can come from the body or the foot depending on style.:friend:
 
If I'm understanding what you are trying to say, the stylistic difference comes in part 3, but only if part 1 was done correctly.

#3 doesn't REPLACE 1 and 2.

In other words, in #3, the leader moves either his body or foot into the space created for him by the correct execution of 1&2. If he hasn't done 1&2, there is no space.

Just wanted to make that clear for the OP, in case she interpreted your post to mean that INITIATING the lead can come from the body or the foot depending on style.:friend:
You are correct (as always). I misunderstood what you initially said in a prior post.

:notworth:
 
If I'm understanding what you are trying to say, the stylistic difference comes in part 3, but only if part 1 was done correctly.

#3 doesn't REPLACE 1 and 2.

In other words, in #3, the leader moves either his body or foot into the space created for him by the correct execution of 1&2. If he hasn't done 1&2, there is no space.

Just wanted to make that clear for the OP, in case she interpreted your post to mean that INITIATING the lead can come from the body or the foot depending on style.:friend:

exactly- if the toso initiation didn't happen and he just "moved" then that's bad...but that torso initiation is very subtle, and takes practice to both lead and follow, and I'd say a person who got that on day one no matter how much dancing they have done or taught must be pretty amazing, because it's subtle and easy to miss without training first...which I think is why people get so much in a frazzle about leg versus body...the movement itself is felt, generally not seen, so people just watching probably aren't going to be able to tell how or if it was done because it looks like the leads leg moved on it's own before the body though it didn't if they did it right.
 
Re: first lesson´s bruises

.. amazing that anyone ever comes back for more given how awkward the first lessons are ...

I still remember my first traumatic lesson: The students should walk in beginners frame (leaders hands at the woman´s upper arms). The teacher couple rotated in. Finally it was my turn and I took her at her arms and did my steps. After 2 or 3 steps she insulted me: dont clutch me that tight, I get bruises at my arms! I chuck up the class, and never took one again. I migrated for two years through the milongas of my town and learned by doing. And, thanks to all milongueras: You are really pretty good teachers, and you know what counts!

So, my credo as a to-be teacher is to get into the position of the student.
 
First off, the "just forget everything you know about ballroom" comments aren't terribly helpful. Comparisons for things that are very different can be quite helpful for someone learning anything new - but only when you can say "it's totally different in x, y, and z ways." While for people with prior dance experience making comparisons to other forms of dance can be useful, the same is true for people without dance experience - i.e., "it's like just walking down the street, except. . . " Explaining how something should be (itself), or how (specifically) it is different from something else is useful.

My original complaint wasn't "That's not how it's done in ballroom," but rather "That's not what I've witnessed (in my admittedly limited experience seeing) Argentine Tango." Moving on.

You can be both straight (good posture, good spinal alignment) and forward (weight forward). In fact, you should be. It's not a contradiction in AT terms.

Even though BR isn't technically back (so far as I understand it), the way the movement happens and the way the posture is, will feel "back" or "away" FROM AN AT PERSPECTIVE!!! If you're even thinking about putting pressure back into his right hand--you're "leaning" back and away from him.

Okay, now that we're all refining terminology, the position he physically put me in (that is still bothering my back) was not straight and forward as Peaches mentions above - it was forward and forward. Imagine taking a standard (straight) posture, and reversing completely - so instead of shoulders down and back, they are up and forward. Instead of the lower back curving forward and then back, curving back then forward, with even the ribcage pulling back (not just closed, back). (And this was not just how it felt, I saw it in the mirror.) See posture-exercises.blogspot.com/2008/07/bad-posture-number-3-of-4-flat-back.html for an image (except with the weight more over the balls of the feet).
 
There's a lot of very good advice here. In particular, I like most of what Zoopsia and Gssh posted. I also think they are correct about possibly this instructor isn't the right one for you. The only thing I might add is that there are different styles of walking and different embraces, so remember there isn't just "one" correct answer (i.e. I'm not in agreement that the foot can not move before the body, in certain situations).

In leading you to step backwards (with him stepping forwards), in my opinion:
1) The leader indicates his intention by leaning/moving forward slightly. (depending on the teacher, the lead comes from the chest, frame, core, or body). The movement should not be initiated by the arms or hands.
2) The follower responds by moving her free foot back, but without doing a weight change yet.
3) The leader moves into the space that was created by the follower. (But some people say the leader's foot moves first, while others say the body goes first. IMO, this is a style preference.)
4) When the leader's body moves to complete the step, he brings her (or the follower's body moves) with him.
5) The weight change for both of them happens together on the beat, which completes the step.

Just my two cents.

Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?
 
Originally Posted by dchester
There's a lot of very good advice here. In particular, I like most of what Zoopsia and Gssh posted. I also think they are correct about possibly this instructor isn't the right one for you. The only thing I might add is that there are different styles of walking and different embraces, so remember there isn't just "one" correct answer (i.e. I'm not in agreement that the foot can not move before the body, in certain situations).

In leading you to step backwards (with him stepping forwards), in my opinion:
1) The leader indicates his intention by leaning/moving forward slightly. (depending on the teacher, the lead comes from the chest, frame, core, or body). The movement should not be initiated by the arms or hands.
2) The follower responds by moving her free foot back, but without doing a weight change yet.
3) The leader moves into the space that was created by the follower. (But some people say the leader's foot moves first, while others say the body goes first. IMO, this is a style preference.)
4) When the leader's body moves to complete the step, he brings her (or the follower's body moves) with him.
5) The weight change for both of them happens together on the beat, which completes the step.

Just my two cents.

Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?

The pressure does not relent. It's the job of both the lead and follow to maintain constant pressure all through out the tanda (set of three/four songs in a set).

The follower knows how far to step back based on how far the lead goes. As the follower, you will feel him move, and you match movements. You'll feel him land his weight. When you do, you'll feel him start to land you, which is the extent of your current movement.

To illustrate, watch Jennifer Bratt respond to Ney Mello's leading. This is an improvised number:

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Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?

there will be an increase in pressure as walking commences. (hopefully you noted Zoopsia's response that if 1 and 2 don't happen- step number 3 is not correct on it's own).

The pressure does not go away as this would constitute stepping away from your leader before a step is comeplete. This just brings you back to the complaint from the leader that you would be "falling away" from him.

The pressure concludes when the couple stops walking and returns to neutral amount of energy exerted, for lack of a better word. It begins again when they walk again. Recall that the follow is responsible for maintaining the distance, as someone pointed out, and in close embrace, the distance is zero. She would be responsible for helping maintain that forward feeling as long as he was stepping.

The follow goes as far as his torso goes (unless he is faking the follow out intentionally to take a different size step than he is).
 
there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure,

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step?

Two good questions..

I'd say the answer to #1 is that there is a VERY SLIGHT and very BRIEF increase in the pressure when he starts forward movement to which, in my opinion, you can and should respond to in kind, but no more, in your torso. You aren't a wall he is pressing against when he makes this first very slight movement initiative. You are, in essence, a part of him.

Of course, if he never takes the step, then its not all so brief and you may find yourself accidentally moving your torso too much, but that doesn't happen often (it might happen if, for instance, he suddenly can't go where he intended because the couple in front of you has moved against line of dance into the space he was going to move you to.) While you are in the early stages, and still dancing with beginners, expect some jerky leads rather than the smooth transitions we are talking about. Leading tango is really hard.

How far back to step... that is the eternal question and you will most likely get more than one answer over the course of your dancing. I think its one of the things that makes tango a little harder than ballroom, because you have to start to extend for your backstep before having much clue how big of a step you might end up taking. (for some reason side steps don't cause people quite as much trouble)

MY answer is that the leader can see back there and you can't. Therefore, all you can do is assume you will eventually have the ability to fully extend your free leg and be prepared to do so, and he should assume you are going to do that. Anything else is a partial extension and exactly how partial is too hard to guess. After all, you can't exactly feel your way back, cautiously and slowly exploring with your foot for obstacles, nor can you have ESP about how far back to reach based on a step not yet fully led. Nor can you keep your free leg dangling somewhat behind you in an arbitrary fashion obviously holding it out of the way, but not doing anything with it.

Of course, depending on the music and his style (and his experience), you may have plenty of time to make a slow reach and find it very intuitive with his movement. With a beginner leader, his transitions will be more abrupt and you have to reach a little earlier to avoid getting stomped.

But since you haven't put any weight on it yet, you may end up shortening up your step when he actually moves you to it. (one of the many important reasons not to put weight on your free leg before you're supposed to.)

Your next question might be... "what does he do if there's not room for you to fully extend?". Well, if you think about the geometry, the lower you are in your standing knee, the further you can reach. So if he is doing any sort of holding you up or lifting, it might be a sign that you can't step very far. (conversely, downward pressure to get you deeper into your knee might mean he's going to be expecting to take a big step.)

Now maybe that just seems a little too "secret handshake". But keep in mind one important thing about stepping back that I STILL have to remind myself of (damn ballet training!)

You aren't reaching with a pointed toe with lots of stretch through the top of your foot.


If you do that, you will have to pull away from your partner to put your heel down as the step completes. I've had teachers who said you shouldn't be putting your heel down until your body is OVER the foot to pass to the next step because the leader feels the "clunk down". And I've also had teachers who said your heel shouldn't really ever be UP in the first place.. the sole of your foot should be towards the floor, not the wall behind you. (Isn't there some culture where showing the soles of your feet is very rude? Hindu, maybe?)

Sigh... one of many things on the list of things teachers don't agree on and can't explain consistently.

MY view is that your reach should allow you to get your heel down to, or reasonably close to the floor when you first do your reach without having to pull away from your partner at all. This is NOT intuitive to me, because i find myself wanting to reach back with a pointed toe and turned out leg. (lets not get into how turn-out will mess with your walking right now!) If you reach with a pointed foot and the leader doesn't take a big enough step for you to get all the way back with your heel down, you will either pull away from him to do so or end up leaning more on him because you didn't get back over your axis. Either way... not good.

So the length of your reach will depend on some variables like how flexible your achilles is and how high your shoe heels are. Its one of the reasons the really high heels are in some ways EASIER to dance in than a flat... you can get your heel down in backwards walking because of the angle. On the other hand, the higher heel will also decrease your reach because of the way it affects your FRONT foot. :rolleyes: In my experience of watching and talking to leaders, more followers err on the side of taking steps too SMALL than reaching too far. Unless you are deep in plie' or have gumby achilles, then with proper technique as regarding being able to keep the heels downward, your reach probably isn't going to be too big.

And if the leader wants to take a step bigger than your reach, you have to be prepared to let your foot skim backwards a little as you move to it. More reasons not to have weight on it too soon!

Which brings up another point.. you're really just reaching because he's PROBABLY going to take you backwards if he's giving you increased forward pressure. In reality, he might not take you backwards...anything can happen. Anticipation is the follower's worst enemy! So when I say "reach" and "extend", you are doing it with a relaxed (but energized) free leg that in truth is prepared to go ANYWHERE even AFTER you started reaching back.

All this takes time to learn and get the feel of the movement and timing. You may find your other training helps with all these fine points and you may find as I did, that certain things (like reaching with a dramtically pointed foot) create problems. When everyone dancing tango danced in close embrace and in crowded Buenos Aires milongas, the finer points of reaching may not have come up. There was nowhere to go. Nobody took big steps. The dancing was all small and compact and you couldn't see anyone's feet anyway, so doing fancy things with them was irrelevant. All that mattered was connection and musicality.

Your mileage may vary....
 
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow,
As I understand it (and I could be wrong), the pressure shouldn't really vary a lot, because variation disrupts connection.

You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?
Sort of. I think the sequence is something like:
1. Lead initiates the (follower's) leg to move with his core
2. Follower moves leg but does not transfer weight
3. Lead starts to move (leg and / or body)
4. Leader and follower transfers weight at the same time (ideally!)

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step?
Depends on the lead - the strength of the lead determines the length of the step.

My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?
Um. Not sure. I don't think that's right, but I could be misunderstanding it.
 

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