Tango illusions

One of my primary teachers says much of tango is illusion.

I've had several teachers say that a good lead should NOT be obvious to an observer. Perhaps that helps contribute to some of the illusions.

do you agree or disagree?

Examples of illusions:

sacada (displacement )- appears that one partners foot or leg is being moved by the others. This may actually happen, but it's usually an illusion.

arrastre (drag) or barrida (sweep) - the foot of each partner remains in contact. It may appear as though they are dragging each other, but usually the follower is taking the step being led rather than being dragged to it. Sometimes the follower may initiate a drag.

voleo - the follower appears to be whipping their leg, but is actually led. Sometimes it is done without the lead, as an adornment?

gancho (hook) - the follower appears to be hooking her leg into her partner's, but is actually led. Sometimes it is done without the lead, as an adornment?

enganche (leg wrap) - the follower appears to be wrapping her leg around her partner, but is actually led. Sometimes it is done without the lead, as an adornment?

parada (stop) - appears as though the stop comes from the foot, but actually comes from the frame.

An illusion among non-dancers here in North America seems to be:

The couple must have an intimate erotic or emotional connection off of the dance floor to dance like that on the dance floor.

What would you add to this list?

I think that, rather than illusion, most persons are dissillusioned that they are really dancing. Much of what you listed has been passed down as rule rather than true observation.

I would agree that a good lead should NOT be obvious to an observer.

Agree that sacada appears that a foot or leg is being moved by the another, but can actually happen.

Same for arrastre; not for barrida.

Boleos/Ganchos can be led, but are sometimes done without the lead, as an adornment.

Enganches are not led directly, but could be said that they are led by placement or position.

Disagree completely that parada appears as though the stop comes from the foot, but actually comes from the frame.

I wouldn't say it's "illusion", but I think most of these movements are not really movements at all - they're just natural consequences of modifying one of the basic steps. But fundamentally, the woman is still taking those basic steps.

For example, with a follower sidestep, you can create a gancho or wrap, simply due to the leader's leg placed in the way whilst the follower takes the a sidestep, and the follower's leg naturally wrapping around it as a consequence. She's still taking a sidestep - it's still the same movement - but it turns into a wrap or gancho or whatever because the leader changes the energy and direction of her movement.

Whenever I've broken down a nuevo movement, so far at least, I've found that it's still based around a combination or modification of one of the basic steps (side / back / forward / pivot).

So that's not an "illusion", but there's some "illusory" aspect to it, I think, in that way.

Does that make any sense?

Angel HI said:

I would agree that a good lead should NOT be obvious to an observer.

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See, and I would disagree with this point.

A lot of times the leads are subtle, but I find it's often possible to see the lead in how he sets up their alignments, or how he makes room for her to move, etc. Not all the time, but often.

to clarify - these were described as illusions - as perceived by an outside observer who does not dance tango.

Not trying to be difficult... Just trying to clarify this for myself. Which is it, and for which illusions?

tangobro said:

One of my primary teachers says much of tango is illusion.

I've had several teachers say that a good lead should NOT be obvious to an observer. Perhaps that helps contribute to some of the illusions.

do you agree or disagree?

Examples of illusions:

(edit by me: lots of stuff here)

An illusion among non-dancers here in North America seems to be:

The couple must have an intimate erotic or emotional connection off of the dance floor to dance like that on the dance floor.

What would you add to this list?

Click to expand...

tangobro said:

to clarify - these were described as illusions - as perceived by an outside observer who does not dance tango.

Click to expand...

Me said:

Not trying to be difficult... Just trying to clarify this for myself. Which is it, and for which illusions?

Click to expand...

The perception of the observer who does not dance tango is that the woman is doing ganchos, leg wraps & voleos of her own volition. Although that may be the case, it may be an illusion. The lead is causing the action to occur.

Arrastre - The perception of the observer who does not dance tango is that the foot of one partner is being pushed or pulled by the foot of the other partner. Although that may be the case, it may be an illusion. The foot of each partner is in contact while a step is lead.

parada (stop) - appears as though the stop comes from the foot, but actually comes from the frame. There may be various schools of thought on this. Two different teachers (American male) have said to do the stop with the foot, as Angel suggests. Several other teachers (Argentine male & female) have said the freno (brake) comes from the frame (la marca), the foot is an additional signal.

tangobro said:

The perception of the observer who does not dance tango is that the woman is doing ganchos, leg wraps & voleos of her own volition. Although that may be the case, it may be an illusion. The lead is causing the action to occur.

Click to expand...

That's reasonable. I remember the first time I saw social tango, in the late 1990s. My first impression was that the man was simply standing there and the woman was walking around him at her own volition. And that's after I'd been dancing myself for a few years.

tangobro said:

The perception of the observer who does not dance tango is that the woman is doing ganchos, leg wraps & voleos of her own volition. Although that may be the case, it may be an illusion. The lead is causing the action to occur.

Arrastre - The perception of the observer who does not dance tango is that the foot of one partner is being pushed or pulled by the foot of the other partner. Although that may be the case, it may be an illusion. The foot of each partner is in contact while a step is lead.

parada (stop) - appears as though the stop comes from the foot, but actually comes from the frame. There may be various schools of thought on this. Two different teachers (American male) have said to do the stop with the foot, as Angel suggests. Several other teachers (Argentine male & female) have said the freno (brake) comes from the frame (la marca), the foot is an additional signal.

Click to expand...

i was taught that for Barridas (and Paradas which I rarely use) that you need to make contact with her foot so she knows your foot is there. When I dance vals the tempo of the giro is not interrrupted, and I would agree if you want her to stop lead her to stop.

Firstly, nice post Dave Bailey (post #3).

Peaches said:

See, and I would disagree with this point.

A lot of times the leads are subtle, but I find it's often possible to see the lead in how he sets up their alignments, or how he makes room for her to move, etc. Not all the time, but often.

Click to expand...

Secondly, perhaps I was not clear. I agree w/ this. I was speaking specifically to the many whose arms can be seen bending/straightening in manipulation of the lady/movement, and/or whose fingers are clearly visibly digging into the backs of follows to make them do something.

For one to be seen properly moving into position or properly executing an alignment/movement, to me, is just good dance.

Angel HI said:

Firstly, nice post Dave Bailey (post #3).Secondly, perhaps I was not clear. I agree w/ this. I was speaking specifically to the many whose arms can be seen bending/straightening in manipulation of the lady/movement, and/or whose fingers are clearly visibly digging into the backs of follows to make them do something.

Click to expand...

I've had a couple people (performers) teach using the fingers as a signal to rotate (CCW), as well as using the heel of the palm to rotate in the opposite direction (CW). According to my wife, I don't do it right though, so it's not something I normally do very much.

dchester said:

I've had a couple people (performers) teach using the fingers as a signal to rotate (CCW), as well as using the heel of the palm to rotate in the opposite direction (CW). According to my wife, I don't do it right though, so it's not something I normally do very much.

Click to expand...

well I wouldnt do it if she's got longer fingernails than you!

we use micro-leading with three fingers over the spine (and each side) in blues but its for very small movements. i dont think many followers want fingers digging in their backs intentionally or not.

Illusion or not - does it really matter?

(well unless you're performing I guess)

bordertangoman said:

well I wouldnt do it if she's got longer fingernails than you!

we use micro-leading with three fingers over the spine (and each side) in blues but its for very small movements. i dont think many followers want fingers digging in their backs intentionally or not.

Click to expand...

One leader that my wife raves about, uses the finger/palm technique when leading, and she says it is great. But according to her, not many other people (including me) know how to do it properly.

Yeah, the famous "marca". I remember it from Osvaldo Zotto's "Asi se baila el tango". Do you have to be Argentine to use it? lol