Dancing in close embrace... Boobs

This is a segue thread from here. The conversation took it's twists and turns, and the conversation went to chest contact. Specifically about boobs.

I think it deserves it's own thread, as it is relevant when you dance Argentine Tango in close embrace.

Here is how the thread evolved:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madahlia
It's a prolonged cheek to cheek, chest to chest close contact. We do not normally have that kind of physical closeness with anyone except our own children or lovers. But tango demands that level of contact, often with complete strangers. How can it seem anything other than intrusive until we learn to adjust and desensitise ourselves to it?

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A chronicle of my (first time) reactions to this predicament---> Click here!

Madahlia said:

!

Roflol! Don't even make me think about CE where another set of boobs are involved!

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bordertangoman said:

I recall one lady in Cambridge whose boobs were always rather hot, literally. Made me wonder.........

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Dave Bailey said:

OK, now I'm thinking about it...

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opendoor said:

Had no real dance experience before I started TA. And in my second tango week at all (I am an autodidact and learned in milongas first) a huge woman stood up and told me that since I had done my first tango steps I should dance in close hold from now on. She picked me up and I felt almost paralyzed, my nose suspended somewhere between her boobs and my legs dangling somewhere in the nirvana, not to be about to do any step at all... When I was put down on earth I realy felt relieved. Dancing with beginners today I actually introduce it the soft way now: changing embrace to and fro fluently within a dance from close to open and to beginners´frame. Think it is important for a follower to learn, that the man´s shoulder is a slide. And I think it is also important to show a (female) beginner how to use the left palm when she does not want to dance that closely with someone.

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Peaches said:

Now thinking of the term I heard somewhere, probably here on D-F: interlocking boobies.

Gotta say, having danced with a woman leader a few times...it's kinda tricky. Boobs have something of a muffling effect on the lead. Mine are big enough...add in another girl's, and it can be kinda difficult to feel what's going on. OTOH, I've danced with women leaders who are small and slim and *ahem* not so gifted *ahem* and it's easier to feel the lead, but they also feel so...breakable. Granted it's the same as dancing with a very small, slim guy...who also just feels breakable.

(What can I say? I'm very self-conscious about my size--both boob-wise and otherwise. But it can, actually, affect how physically pleasant a dance feels.)

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Ampster said:

I actually find it harder to dance with a well endowed woman for the same reason Peaches outlines.

IMHE, they're like shock absorbers that muffle the lead. In order to compensate for that, one needs to adjust their lead to be more deliberate, very slightly longer in duration, and with a little bit more commitment.

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Subliminal said:

I've heard they're like magnets, on account of being so close to the south pole. You get two ladies of opposing polarity trying to dance together and things go flying everywhere.

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opendoor said:

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QUOTE=Dave Bailey;806102]Clearly this is a topic requiring detailed study.

Possibly a government grant will be required.[/QUOT

Peaches said:

Er...wouldn't that be two women of the same polarity? Opposing polarity = attraction, no? Or do I just have a completely different metal image going on of what you meant (it's very amusing regardless).

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Peaches said:

Er...wouldn't that be two women of the same polarity? Opposing polarity = attraction, no? Or do I just have a completely different metal image going on of what you meant (it's very amusing regardless).

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Peaches said:

Originally Posted by Ampster
I actually find it harder to dance with a well endowed woman for the same reason Peaches outlines.

IMHE, they're like shock absorbers that muffle the lead. In order to compensate for that, one needs to adjust their lead to be more deliberate, very slightly longer in duration, and with a little bit more commitment.

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Yep. I find a difference between if I'm dancing with a bra versus not, for one reason or another. The latter is definitely easier.

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Mario7 said:

Crikey, why don't all of you just grow up!:shock:

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Peaches said:

Oh, right. Humor and levity are absolutely, positively, NOT ALLOWED in the realm of tango. How silly of me to forget.

Sheesh.

Boobs are a fact of life, and they are a fact of close embrace tango. Things being what they are in Western society, there's so much other emotional *stuff* that goes along with them. Learning to turn that off, or to rethink our "relationship" to them is a real part of tango, especially for a beginner; it can be difficult, both for men and women, to learn to be OK with a sort of contact that is generally frowned upon. And, there is the very real physical aspect of things, which Ampster and I had both commented on. Is it so flippin' wrong to discuss those things, and to use humor in doing so?

Oh...right..no humor allowed.

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Mario7 said:

Crikey, why don't all of you just grow up!:shock:

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What do you mean? We are discussing a legitimate aspect of tango. most especially in close embrace. Different body makes, types, sizes, do make a difference in leading. In this case, boobs.

We are trying to keep it as light hearted as possible. I don't see a problem here.

I think this deserves a peripheral thread... I'll go start one

As I stated earlier, this thread (I believe) is relevant to Argentine Tango because it really makes a difference in your leading when dancing with different women with different builds.

There is nothing malicious in this conversation, and we (Peaches and I) were trying to keep this as light hearted as possible.

Personally, I find the psychology of the whole thing kinda interesting. And boobs in general, I guess, which sort of feeds into this.

I'm female. Boobs are pretty much uninteresting to me. They make my clothing look good, or not. They catch drips, they get in the way, they're sometimes uncomfortable, they're occasionally useful. But definitely not interesting, no more than my kneecap is interesting. But we're so socialized to think of them as sexual things, and most men seem to regard them as such, and taught not to let anyone touch you there, and you learn to be sorta careful about not letting them get in contact with anyone else. And you get to the point of not thinking about it much (a fact of life), but also rather surrounded with all of this...baggage.

And then you learn AT...

Suddenly all that goes out the window. Ready, set, SQUISH! Now you're pressing yourself up against total strangers, in a manner that would get you dumped by a SO in any other context...and at the same time getting back to the idea that it's no big deal. *scratches head* And it isn't...really...except it sort of is. You just deal with it like it's the elephant in the room that no one will mention and get on with life. And it does become no big deal, which is kind of like how I regard them to begin with.

Except then you start noticing that they affect how to lead (based on what you've said) and how following can feel. So back to thinking about them...but not...

Never mind the whole AT is sensual, and about the embrace, and about men and women...but don't think about those boobs!

Kind of a mind-eff.

ETA: And, also, they're really just kind of funny if you stop to think about things. And the whole situation is kind of amusing...never mind the "interlocking boobies" aspect of two girls dancing together: thinking, "What goes where, now? Lessee, if I shift a bit this way, and you shift a bit that way, then this should work. Hmmm...could stand for some readjustment, but mustn't...am in public."

When I took lessons in apilado (more leaning in than salon and milonguero) it was with a female teacher. And every time we danced, we had that moment or two of boob-alignment issues. She's taller than I am so it wasn't uncomfortable - we 'settled in' pretty quickly. But learning apilado boobs-to-boobs was occasionally challenging, and frequently funny. Just about any time I dance with female leaders, it's a quick matter of, 'okay, who's going to go high and who's going to go low?' lol

After you get over the initial shock. I find myself honestly, and truly desensitized to the fact that you have a stranger's boobs pressing on you.

If, after a long period of time and you still have a problem with this, then you either dance in open embrace or take up something else that does not involve body contact.

The challenge becomes technical. It has to do with the different distances and different applied pressures involved and your ability to adapt to them. In order to make your tango consistent, extensive adjustment on the leader's part needs to happen in order to lead properly, regardless of bust size.

Ampster said:

After you get over the initial shock. I find myself honestly, and truly desensitized to the fact that you have a stranger's boobs pressing on you.

If, after a long period of time and you still have a problem with this, then you either dance in open embrace or take up something else that does not involve body contact.

The challenge becomes technical. It has to do with the different distances and different applied pressures involved and your ability to adapt to them. In order to make your tango consistent, extensive adjustment on the leader's part needs to happen in order to lead properly, regardless of bust size.

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Yeah, pretty much. Now, generally, whatever. Unless I'm dancing with a girl, then practical issues become...well, and issue.

ETA: Or if I'm getting the vibe from someone that they're getting some sort of sexual kick from the embrace. That really is creepy.

Peaches said:

...Or if I'm getting the vibe from someone that they're getting some sort of sexual kick from the embrace. That really is creepy.

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well, of course no one would own up to being a 'creep' would they? especially in public
..let me guess, do they groan, or perhaps breathe in some deeper way? ..or worse, they've managed to disguise or supress their 'excitement'..and simply smile?:nope:
..aren't we all glad that we're not one of those 'creeps'?

Peaches said:

Yeah, pretty much. Now, generally, whatever. Unless I'm dancing with a girl, then practical issues become...well, and issue.

ETA: Or if I'm getting the vibe from someone that they're getting some sort of sexual kick from the embrace. That really is creepy.

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a someone who did a shiatsu massage training, most of this stuff never became an issue for me since I had dealt with it long before I started dancing tango. I would say though that one's body responds but its just a case of accepting it and recognising it as no more than that and having a personal responsibility and boundary.

I had a long conversation with a friend who I found attractive and she was aware of this but she didnt mind, but another man she knew who was also attracted to her she felt really disgusted by; so I think creepiness is more complicated than at first seems. She tried to explain to me that it was because that I was "more clear".

Hence if I feel comfortable dancing in close embrace it allows a beginner to get used to it without feeling that there is any sexual subtext but i would never expect a woman to dance close if she didnt feel comfortable.

Ampster said:

This is a segue thread from here. The conversation took it's twists and turns, and the conversation went to chest contact. Specifically about boobs.

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And quite right too.

One of my dance partners is a very well-endowed lady. Yes, it does affect what you can and can't do, to a point.

With her, I find I need to be much more precise in my positioning - if I'm an inch either way to the wrong side, it has a real effect, whereas it's not so important with women who have less curves.

I also find I need to be a little bit more cautious in hand placement - for example, leading her to a back anti-clockwise pivot - to avoid accidental boob touchage.

In close embrace, I think women with larger boobs need to make effort to avoid contact only at the chest level - this may mean some adjustments to posture.

There we go, a totally-serious post

mkjohnson said:

When I took lessons in apilado (more leaning in than salon and milonguero) it was with a female teacher. And every time we danced, we had that moment or two of boob-alignment issues. She's taller than I am so it wasn't uncomfortable - we 'settled in' pretty quickly. But learning apilado boobs-to-boobs was occasionally challenging, and frequently funny. Just about any time I dance with female leaders, it's a quick matter of, 'okay, who's going to go high and who's going to go low?' lol

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That's hilarious. lol. I've never even considered/realized such an issue exists. Yes, I've been turned on by boobies before, I'm human. But you do forget about them as you keep on dancing.

tido said:

..But you do forget about them as you keep on dancing.

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Some people never forget! :cowboy::cheers:

I'd never thought about this problem occurring when two women dance together, but it does seem that would complicate things. In the apilado class I attend, I've never heard boobs mentioned as a problem for anyone. To me, the embrace feels more like contact with her body generally than with a particular part. If anything, I feel somewhat embarrased that my belt overhang is the point of contact for some partners.
There is, though, this seldom discussed issue -- how to make the frequent necessary adjustments between a straight-on apilado embrace to an embrace suitable for walking inside or outside partner, and vice versa. I don't recall the subject being broached, but I separate just a little from her and slide gently sideways, so that whatever contact occurs during that adjustment is just a light brushing. Nobody's ever complained, and if she's OK, I'm OK.

There is, though, this seldom discussed issue -- how to make the frequent necessary adjustments between a straight-on apilado embrace to an embrace suitable for walking inside or outside partner, and vice versa. I don't recall the subject being broached

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The two torsos should remain "straight-on". To do this both partners have to turn their upper bodies toward their partner. Hips and pelvis remain perpendicular to the line of dance.
This is very doable, but apparently requires a good deal of training. Way too often it doesn't happen like it's supposed to.

Steve Pastor said:

The two torsos should remain "straight-on". To do this both partners have to turn their upper bodies toward their partner. Hips and pelvis remain perpendicular to the line of dance.
This is very doable, but apparently requires a good deal of training

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Hard to believe but here is Ricardo Vidort going to parallel walking outside left, in the first 30 secs. of this video, without sliding a milimeter.

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plugger said:

I'd never thought about this problem occurring when two women dance together, but it does seem that would complicate things. In the apilado class I attend, I've never heard boobs mentioned as a problem for anyone. To me, the embrace feels more like contact with her body generally than with a particular part.

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Yeah, the same thing is true for us, too. I wouldn't say it's really a problem, but if you get two girls dancing and both are ample...well, it's just something else to consider. Usually, though, we've figured out how to deal with our boobs by now. Not surprising that you didn't hear it mentioned in a class--it's kind of a delicate subject, and it's rare to hear issues specific to same-gendered partners dancing brought up in a typical class.

There is, though, this seldom discussed issue -- how to make the frequent necessary adjustments between a straight-on apilado embrace to an embrace suitable for walking inside or outside partner, and vice versa. I don't recall the subject being broached, but I separate just a little from her and slide gently sideways, so that whatever contact occurs during that adjustment is just a light brushing. Nobody's ever complained, and if she's OK, I'm OK.

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For some extreme things I've used the sliding technique. I don't think of separation, however slight, as being necessary...but that's something the leader could be doing and I don't realize it. (Sub, where are you to chime in on this?!?! Oh...right...on vacation. Damn you! ) Usually, though, that sort of separation and sliding doesn't come up as being necessary in apilado, because the steps being done aren't extreme enough to require it. For simple walking outside partner, I've always just used dissociation between my legs and upper body to be able to do it.