You're right, of course, but it's clear that not every one will agree with you.
musician or dancer?
- Thread starter opendoor
- Start date
I think there's a touch of the Iambic Pentameters here (over analysis).
If you really are saying that the rhythm of the dance is not necessarily
the same as the rhythm of the music, I agree. The rhythm of Rhumba,
the dance, is not the same as Rhumba, the music. All steps are on a beat,
3 beats out of 4 are stepped on, the fourth (actually Beat One)
is weight changed on without stepping.
Once again you aren't obviously separating music from the dance.
Much dance tango has a very clear rhythm - it wasn't called dor por quattro
for nothing. How a dancer interprets it is another matter altogether.
It's often listening tango where the rhythm becomes less obvious.
little hobo
New Member
I think it rarely stays on the beat (unless it's a march).
But I'm clearly not persuading anyone.
little hobo
New Member
Rhythm or beat isn't just signified by time signature.
Blues shuffle, syncopation, off beat or back beat aren't denoted by time signature, but are very significant and identifiable rhythms.
They also demonstrate the point at which "beat" starts to mean very different things - especially when it comes to dance music.
Even the most basic time signature and rhythm has a stressed and unstressed beat. In waltz the first note of the three is stressed. I find that thinking in terms of the pulse of the music will more readily lend itself to that change in emphasis (but again that's just me).
Peaches
Well-Known Member
DH and I have been discussing things. It makes for an interesting topic of conversation between a dancer and a trained musician. His thoughts:
The first thing I would say is that I have a different view on some of your definitions. Hopefully, this might add something to the conversation here.
A time signature gives two pieces of information, and only two: what is a "beat", and how many "beats" there are per measure. Time signature says nothing about tempo, and except in certain circumstances, it tells us nothing of the rhythm of the piece.
Rhythm is the frequency with which the pulses in a song (melodic, percussive, lyrical, etc) line up or don't line up with the beats in each measure; whether they form patterns, etc. It is important to note that while most rhythms tend to "line up" with a 3/4 or 4/4 time signature, that isn't necessarily the case. Poema (as mentioned before) is an excellent example of a song that tends to have a very very strong 4/4 feel and pulse to it, but there is also a melodic line that floats over the accompaniment, rarely actually lining up with ANY of the 4 beats (most frequently referred to as rubato). That floating melody line has a rhythm of its own.
Remember that as dancers we are listening to the work, not performing it. Thus, we cannot see the sheet music proper. It is the performers that provide the ears with a sense of the time signature (ie, is it "in 4" or "in 3") and rhythm (quick quick slow? slow slow quick? etc) of a piece. Both cha-cha and rhumba, as well as many tangos, are in 4/4 time, but it isn't until we hear them performed that we get a sense of their idiomatic rhythms. A piece with a time signature of 4/4 only "becomes" a cha-cha once we hear that unique rhythm. I could easily notate a cha-cha in a 32/32 time signature (thus having 32 beats per measure). To a musician's eyes, it would look pretty ridiculous, but to a dancer's ears it would be indistinguishable from its 4/4 origins.
My last point would be that the lyrics of a song are possibly the best indication of the "feeling" of a song outside of its rhythm/tempo/time signature. Here, the song is speaking directly to us (yes perhaps in a language we don't understand), telling us some story or other. Those dance songs that stand the tests of time tend to be the ones whose accompaniment best supports and reinforces whatever the lyrics are trying to convey. Indeed, it is typically these songs which work best as instrumentals--the musicality is of such a high level that the lyrics are implied without being strictly necessary to appreciate the song.
The above paragraph is highly subjective, so please read it as such.
In summary, I would say step when you feel you should; *portray* as well as *interpret* when you dance; get translations of lyrics whenever you can; have fun; focus on what part(s) of the song's story mean the most to you and your dance partner; don't be afraid to make mistakes, whatever those might be; lastly, when you do make a mistake, do it with CONVICTION.
A time signature gives two pieces of information, and only two: what is a "beat", and how many "beats" there are per measure. Time signature says nothing about tempo, and except in certain circumstances, it tells us nothing of the rhythm of the piece.
Rhythm is the frequency with which the pulses in a song (melodic, percussive, lyrical, etc) line up or don't line up with the beats in each measure; whether they form patterns, etc. It is important to note that while most rhythms tend to "line up" with a 3/4 or 4/4 time signature, that isn't necessarily the case. Poema (as mentioned before) is an excellent example of a song that tends to have a very very strong 4/4 feel and pulse to it, but there is also a melodic line that floats over the accompaniment, rarely actually lining up with ANY of the 4 beats (most frequently referred to as rubato). That floating melody line has a rhythm of its own.
Remember that as dancers we are listening to the work, not performing it. Thus, we cannot see the sheet music proper. It is the performers that provide the ears with a sense of the time signature (ie, is it "in 4" or "in 3") and rhythm (quick quick slow? slow slow quick? etc) of a piece. Both cha-cha and rhumba, as well as many tangos, are in 4/4 time, but it isn't until we hear them performed that we get a sense of their idiomatic rhythms. A piece with a time signature of 4/4 only "becomes" a cha-cha once we hear that unique rhythm. I could easily notate a cha-cha in a 32/32 time signature (thus having 32 beats per measure). To a musician's eyes, it would look pretty ridiculous, but to a dancer's ears it would be indistinguishable from its 4/4 origins.
My last point would be that the lyrics of a song are possibly the best indication of the "feeling" of a song outside of its rhythm/tempo/time signature. Here, the song is speaking directly to us (yes perhaps in a language we don't understand), telling us some story or other. Those dance songs that stand the tests of time tend to be the ones whose accompaniment best supports and reinforces whatever the lyrics are trying to convey. Indeed, it is typically these songs which work best as instrumentals--the musicality is of such a high level that the lyrics are implied without being strictly necessary to appreciate the song.
The above paragraph is highly subjective, so please read it as such.
In summary, I would say step when you feel you should; *portray* as well as *interpret* when you dance; get translations of lyrics whenever you can; have fun; focus on what part(s) of the song's story mean the most to you and your dance partner; don't be afraid to make mistakes, whatever those might be; lastly, when you do make a mistake, do it with CONVICTION.
opendoor
Forum Master
this is the only response that makes me wonder. See, if I switch to the musician in me (formerly guitar, now I´m studying bandoneon) I do everything very consciousness, say aware, by mind. But if I´m dancing, everything happens authomatically, in time with the music. Think, thats the differnece?! Thx a lot!
I found pretty good and simple explanation at
www dot difference dot net/miscellaneous/difference-between-beat-and-rhthym
From a musician's standpoint, I would go with what little hobo said about the melody not on the beat (and the beat not having the same length, but that should already be understood from the notes above)
From a dancer's standpoint, and I'm a beginner here, I would go with what little hobo said about the pulse of the music, especially for dance music with a strong pulse such as cha cha or rumba. For AT, I think the tango milonga has the strongest pulse from the ta-rup-tum-tum accompaniment and pretty easy for most people to hear.
And when someone mentions lyrical interpretation or says they are dancing to the lyrics, I would take it that they mean stepping fast and slow, and pausing, according to the phrasing of the melody line.
Noting also that AT dance music is not often sung, so we are not technically hearing the lyrics, so I take it that people mean the melody. With the absence of the lyrics, we lose a bit, or may be most, of the feeling of the song, so I think it's more the mood of the music from the melody and the accompanied arrangement. Unless it's a familiar song of courseand the dancer knows what the song is about.
www dot difference dot net/miscellaneous/difference-between-beat-and-rhthym
From a musician's standpoint, I would go with what little hobo said about the melody not on the beat (and the beat not having the same length, but that should already be understood from the notes above)
From a dancer's standpoint, and I'm a beginner here, I would go with what little hobo said about the pulse of the music, especially for dance music with a strong pulse such as cha cha or rumba. For AT, I think the tango milonga has the strongest pulse from the ta-rup-tum-tum accompaniment and pretty easy for most people to hear.
And when someone mentions lyrical interpretation or says they are dancing to the lyrics, I would take it that they mean stepping fast and slow, and pausing, according to the phrasing of the melody line.
Noting also that AT dance music is not often sung, so we are not technically hearing the lyrics, so I take it that people mean the melody. With the absence of the lyrics, we lose a bit, or may be most, of the feeling of the song, so I think it's more the mood of the music from the melody and the accompanied arrangement. Unless it's a familiar song of courseand the dancer knows what the song is about.
opendoor
Forum Master
..booked the rhythm workshop with Chico at the Sitges Tango Fest, and it was really interesting. No theory, just merely percussion:
The guy had to take 3 steps and lead the girl also 3 steps,
but then he 3 steps, she 2 steps,
finally he 2 steps, she 3 steps.
All this only works if you consider your legs as something similar to independent drum stiicks. This is not my approach to TA, but it is a really fascinating aspect.
Chico and Juana at Sitges http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRFr4S4XQwA
The guy had to take 3 steps and lead the girl also 3 steps,
but then he 3 steps, she 2 steps,
finally he 2 steps, she 3 steps.
All this only works if you consider your legs as something similar to independent drum stiicks. This is not my approach to TA, but it is a really fascinating aspect.
Chico and Juana at Sitges http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRFr4S4XQwA
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
drum sticks...chicken drum sticks..now getting hungry....
but yes leading the ladies legs different is a nice challenge now and again
I like the call and response in leading to the cross ;
but yes leading the ladies legs different is a nice challenge now and again
I like the call and response in leading to the cross ;