Random thoughts about following

sixela said:

If absolutely everything was to be led, then all followers would in theory be interchangeable, and there would be no room for interpretation at all.

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bordertangoman said:

no i think there's a difference..for Belgica you need a slavishly obedient follower, for Pugliando you need, a rock chick..

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We have been touching on the question of "what do excellent followers actually do" over the last few days, and i think this is worth a new thread.
These two quotes have been bothering me because in my mind there is no contradiction between "slavishly obedient" and "rock chick", nor does precise following make followers interchangable. In some ways i feel the opposite is true - the space for a follower to express herself gets bigger, not smaller, the more precisly she follows.
In a way i think of a followers relationship with the lead as similar as the leaders relationship with the music. A leader should not claim that he is expressing himself if he is off beat - he can claim that he is expressing himself if he is off beat in a way that reflects something in the melody, or the lyrics, or whatever, but there needs to be some sense that he is using the music as a framework for what he is doing. In a very similar way the leader (and the music - i think this is part of what makes following so difficult: they have to follow the music, and the leader simultaneously, and if the leader is not trustworthy in his relationship to the music her creative space basically vanishes) provides the framework for the followers dance, and self expression does not require to break out of this framework.
I am actually unhappy talking about this in terms of "obedience" - this suggests that being in the framework set by the lead diminishes the followers input, and i don't think it does, the opposite is true. In someways i feel a lot of tango teaching and performing neglects this aspect of following - finding the freedom in the lead, but instead looks for competence in executing the lead and then progressing to technically more challenging leads, leading to a vicious circle (and a lack of satisfaction once the competence to follow everything is reached).


Of course this is very much from a leaders perspective, so should be taken with a grain of salt
Gssh

Gssh said:

...
In a way i think of a followers relationship with the lead as similar as the leaders relationship with the music. A leader should not claim that he is expressing himself if he is off beat - he can claim that he is expressing himself if he is off beat in a way that reflects something in the melody, or the lyrics, or whatever, but there needs to be some sense that he is using the music as a framework for what he is doing. In a very similar way the leader (and the music - i think this is part of what makes following so difficult: they have to follow the music, and the leader simultaneously, and if the leader is not trustworthy in his relationship to the music her creative space basically vanishes) provides the framework for the followers dance, and self expression does not require to break out of this framework.
...
Gssh

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Yes, yes. I am a follower. I agree with you.

The best experience for me was when I followed perfectly the lead and the lead gave me the opportunity to fully express the music I was hearing, while, at the same time, my follow gave the lead full freedom of expressing the music he was hearing.

We dance together, to the music. -- That is the best.

I always enjoy your posts Gssh. There was sort of a thread recently about what makes a good follower (versus maybe what makes a follower good) which kind of degenerated into each leaders preferences for what they want in a follower. So thanks for asking the opinion without inserting a list of your own preferences in a follower (though you may also have a list like that too, just as most followers have a list of leader preferences).

A follower is never going to be able to please every lead she dances with. Now that I am thinking about what you are asking, I do think you are on a good track. The more precise a followers following is, the more she may be able to find expression.

As a follower myself, I think the precision part of a really good follower comes from mainly experience and training, and part of it (the ability to find time in a lead to express something) is a trait I notice in most people I've seen that I'd consider really good followers (or that at least appear that way to me; they certainly don't lack for dances) and that is the ability to look or be relaxed whatever lead may be going on. When the leader is competent they may actually BE very relaxed as opposed to maybe just looking that way, and that's when the ability to find time to express yourself without disription to the lead is able to come out, assuming you've had some training in that direction. (No point in trying it with someone who's lead you are just trying to keep up with or are just barely understanding.)

So precision and training may also help in that they allow the follower to be able to relax (one hopes) so she can be confident enough to express herself.

Part of the lack I have seen comes in lack of training the followers to be responsible for the music also (as in understanding it's structure and timing just as a leader has to and being willing to take that on as part of their dance) so they can begin to understand exactly where the windows are, how to encourage them and how to stay connected to the music and leader while following. Most ladies I see dance honestly either look like they enjoy it but are afraid to put a little of themselves in to the dance and probably haven't been trained how to do it without whaylaying what the leader just led, or they just look like furniture being moved around the floor and don't even understand the basic idea behind moving their steps musically but are waiting to be excruciatingly moved to the next place by the leader (I also admit the poor footwork I sometimes see is a result of how a leader is leading and you just can't be on time or follow the music).

All that being said, from my own position as follower, a trait I find in the best leaders I have danced with is also a relaxed feeling to their lead, the ability to use the momentum of my follow from their previous lead and not fight it by trying to send me somewhere that doesn't follow flow of the previous thing they just led and also goes with something I can hear in the music (which also probably helps the relaxation factor). This also gives me space to input, since I'm not having to fight to find where I'm at or perhaps should have been at (ie, there is something to the old saying a follower is only really as good (at a maximum) as her leader).

If one wants to express himself/herself in dance, there are many dance forms to choose, i.e., jazz. You improvise alone.

That's not the same in partner dancing. Tango restricts the freedom of self-expression even more by the embrace. It's not intended for two dancing as one to do their own thing, by any means. It's the man who dances what he feels in the music, stays within the rhythm and tempo, protects his partner so they enjoy the intimacy of the embrace together in an intimate conversation.

Each partner has a role in the dance. I like it that way. I dance for the embrace, not to express myself with body movement or adornos. I listen to the music with my partners. That's enough for me. I know I wouldn't be dancing with milongueros in BsAs if I wanted to do my own thing.

Those who want to "express themselves" can dance West Coast Swing, an improvised dance to swing and blues music with hand contact.

jantango said:

.. I dance for the embrace, not to express myself with body movement...

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Thanks for replying. And thats the point: more and more frequently I find myself dancing alone at home. There were times I have been every night throughout the week at a milonga. Now I skip almost every milonga.

I suspect Gssh is not at all talking about "doing your own thing" and neither am I. I am fully aware what partner dancing entails. I suspect what Gssh is talking about falls more in the lines of how do the follower's experiences with leaders go when they feel like they are involved in the dance, as opposed to having a dance dictated to them....

I've never had any complaint from Argentine's I've danced with that I "do my own thing". In fact, a couple of my very favorite leaders are very traditional Argentine dancers. One thing that is present in their lead is a relxation that enables me, rather than restricts me and a flow that makes the dancing very relaxed, which I also find enabling for my own dancing which in turn itself creates the space for small possibilities to increase the musical expression.

Enhancing the dance is not the same thing as "doing your own thing". Both partner can enhance the dance. Good leaders create the atmosphere in their embrace and lead to make that possible. (Good technique helps this.) If it's not there, then I'd say anything the follower attempts to do to "enhance" will only come across as "doing her own thing", so a follower has to be experienced enough to know when it's there and when it's not. The easy way out is to never learn how to do it and what your options are. Some leads like it this way and some don't.

jantango said:

If one wants to express himself/herself in dance, there are many dance forms to choose, i.e., jazz. You improvise alone.


It's the man who dances what he feels in the music, stays within the rhythm and tempo, protects his partner so they enjoy the intimacy of the embrace together in an intimate conversation.

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But how can it be a conversation if the follower is silent?
Would you accept the statement that the better the followers get the more exchangable they get?
Why do leaders do partner dances if the follower doesn't express herself - is there an added value of dancing with a followe over dancing with sticks? Is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsuIuxz5_Eo the perfect follower?

Ok, this is a bit polemic, but this is exactly what i am trying to talk about: a dance should be a conversation. I see a lot of leaders who are just monologuing - often it is because of selfishness, or lack of understanding, but sometimes it is out of desperation because the follower is not saying anything. All leaders have the story about the follower who was following perfectly but clearly was completely somewhere else in her head, making the whole tanda a miserable exercise.

So, how does a follower do her part in this conversation? Sure, there is "not-following", but if we stay in the image of the conversation that is basically jumping up on the chair and starting to yell. Depending on ones preferences even adornos are more interrupting and yelling than having a conversation, but for a good dance in my experience i need to get some engagement with me and the music back from the follower. It is not a conversation if i don't know what she hears in the music.

Gssh

Originally Posted by jantango
It's the man who dances what he feels in the music, stays within the rhythm and tempo, protects his partner so they enjoy the intimacy of the embrace together in an intimate conversation.

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Gssh said:

But how can it be a conversation if the follower is silent? Why do leaders do partner dances if the follower doesn't express herself - is there an added value of dancing with a followe over dancing with sticks? Is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsuIuxz5_Eo the perfect follower?

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I have a suspicion that there are times when followers are moving with their partner and though their own musical interpretation and this is being accomodated by the leader and both are doing it effortlessly and without thought.

a dance should be a conversation. I see a lot of leaders who are just monologuing - often it is because of selfishness, or lack of understanding,

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Agreed

but sometimes it is out of desperation because the follower is not saying anything.

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Is this not the point at which a follower changes from being a competant follower to a good follower. I think in some posts above the distinction was made between excellence in personal technique (competant follower) and bringing her own feeling of the music to the dance as well (good follower).

All leaders have the story about the follower who was following perfectly but clearly was completely somewhere else in her head, making the whole tanda a miserable exercise.

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Where a good follower does this, I feel it may be personal problem with the leader or herself at that time, rather than a pure dance issue.

So, how does a follower do her part in this conversation? Sure, there is "not-following", but if we stay in the image of the conversation that is basically jumping up on the chair and starting to yell. Depending on ones preferences even adornos are more interrupting and yelling than having a conversation, but for a good dance in my experience i need to get some engagement with me and the music back from the follower. It is not a conversation if i don't know what she hears in the music.

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I agree but I would also say that possibally some echo of things which I feel coming back may be inspired as much from my movement as the music and I in turn look to send back the compliment.

Ant- I tend to agree that if a follower is following well but may seem somewhere esle, it may be something other than a dance issue.

One of the first ways I learned how to give back to the conversation as a follower was when learning how to dance as if the step he was leading was my idea and I had to also take him there with my own movement once he led it. This energizes the followers reaction time and decreases what a leader often feels as "drag" or "slow response time". Another is really learning the music, and how the timing of most of the common movements that are led fit within it.

While it may sound like to some leaders that they teach backleading to advanced followers, I can almost bet you that the ladies you most enjoy dancing with either do this naturally, or have had some training in being active followers themselves.

To me getting ladies to be able to do this well is where it all begins to cross over from being a competent follow, to a good dancer.

Gssh said:

...So, how does a follower do her part in this conversation?...

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My BEST partner has the ability to become one with me. I can lead anything and she will follow it. Occasionally I lead something that goes over the edge and does not work out as I had thought. She will go over the edge right with me. However, she does not add much to the dance. Maybe it's like playing a fine violin, or driving a Porsche, in which they respond to your every nuance perfectly, but do not contribute beyond that.

My FAVORITE partner is not as skilled in following as my BEST partner. Things happen differently than I expect, or they happen when I didn't expect them at all. She contributes something beyond, or differently than, what I lead, and I enjoy that. It means that I don't always get purely my own dance. I think that would be boring. I enjoy having the additional variety that my favorite partner brings to the dance floor.

Gssh said:

But how can it be a conversation if the follower is silent?
Would you accept the statement that the better the followers get the more exchangable they get?
Why do leaders do partner dances if the follower doesn't express herself - is there an added value of dancing with a followe over dancing with sticks? Is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsuIuxz5_Eo the perfect follower?

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What is your definition of follower communication, and what is your definition of the follower expressing herself in the dance? I think I understand what Jan is talking about, but I don't know what you mean. Is it that you lead something and the follower occasionally does something else intentionally?

Gssh said:

Ok, this is a bit polemic, but this is exactly what i am trying to talk about: a dance should be a conversation. I see a lot of leaders who are just monologuing - often it is because of selfishness, or lack of understanding, but sometimes it is out of desperation because the follower is not saying anything. All leaders have the story about the follower who was following perfectly but clearly was completely somewhere else in her head, making the whole tanda a miserable exercise.

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I'm not trying to change your way of thinking (especially since I don't really understand it), but from my perspective, you don't view the importance of the embrace the same way that some of us do. If you did, you would likely understand why some of us dance differently from what you seem to want.

Gssh said:

So, how does a follower do her part in this conversation? Sure, there is "not-following", but if we stay in the image of the conversation that is basically jumping up on the chair and starting to yell. Depending on ones preferences even adornos are more interrupting and yelling than having a conversation, but for a good dance in my experience i need to get some engagement with me and the music back from the follower. It is not a conversation if i don't know what she hears in the music.

Gssh

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Different people want different things from the dance. If you know what you like, then why worry about what followers with a different philosophy like? I spend my time worrying about the followers that I like to dance with, and if they like my dance. Not all followers want the same thing either.

I don't know; I myself didn't read anything at all in to his commentary regarding embrace or personal preferences. He'd have to answer for himself but what I saw in the question was about the followers experience in the dance conversation, and if/how a good follower inputs in the dance. That doesn't really seem to have much to do with embrace preferences or worrying about what followers who have different preferences to him like.

I actually understand perfectly what he means when he says he sees leaders monologuing. You can tell when you are dancing with someone who is also dancing with you, as opposed to running you through the hoops, even if it's fairly musical hoops....

I do think I may understand where you are coming from on the last part...How does a follower contribute and how do you define it? Again, I'll say it's active following that does it (or at least is part of it). You leaders may not know it for what it's called, but I'd make a bet that's probably what you are feeling when you dance with someone whom you'd classify as "good" or "engaged" in the dance. I was assuming in my answer that hwen he spoke of good followers and precision we are talking about ladies who tend to follow what is led to them, and not like beginners where you might get lots of "surprises" out of your lead. Inadvertant following is not the same thing as a follow who is clearly in control of her dancing (technically) and actively engaging herself in the dance. Most leaders know when they have danced with one or the other...

bastet said:

I don't know; I myself didn't read anything at all in to his commentary regarding embrace or personal preferences. He'd have to answer for himself but what I saw in the question was about the followers experience in the dance conversation, and if/how a good follower inputs in the dance. That doesn't really seem to have much to do with embrace preferences or worrying about what followers who have different preferences to him like.

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His statement seemed to be in response to Jan's post, which led me to that conclusion.

dchester said:

His statement seemed to be in response to Jan's post, which led me to that conclusion.

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Ah well, it's entirely possible I didn't understand his initial question at all.

AndaBien said:

My BEST partner has the ability to become one with me. I can lead anything and she will follow it. Occasionally I lead something that goes over the edge and does not work out as I had thought. She will go over the edge right with me. However, she does not add much to the dance. Maybe it's like playing a fine violin, or driving a Porsche, in which they respond to your every nuance perfectly, but do not contribute beyond that.

My FAVORITE partner is not as skilled in following as my BEST partner. Things happen differently than I expect, or they happen when I didn't expect them at all. She contributes something beyond, or differently than, what I lead, and I enjoy that. It means that I don't always get purely my own dance. I think that would be boring. I enjoy having the additional variety that my favorite partner brings to the dance floor.

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I asked my boyfriend (a classically trained musician who plays period instruments) what a fine violin (or other fine instrument) does for you, as opposed to a good one. He replied that they make you discover things about your playing or play things you didn't think you could or were able to with a good instrument. They open you up to be able to play subtleties in the music that might never have occurred to you before. They also have quirks, strengths and weaknesses that you have to (and want to) adjust to. He was quite adamant that they have personalities and that they aren't just a circuit to move the music from your head to someones ear (his words).

I couldn't help but make an analogy to dance at that point....