Dancing with beginners in close embrace

Please excuse my specifying C.E. but my opinion is that beginners should begin with C.E. anyway. This opinion has even been expressed by some Nuevo teachers and so hardly controversial. I also am narrowing this down to the more experienced leader's dance with the beginning follower.
What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ... Hopefully, this thread will help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.:applause:

Mario7 said:

.......and so hardly controversial.

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No. Of course not. Quite.

I would have found close embrace to be deeply, profoundly alarming if it had been my first experience of AT. Even worse if it was my first experience of partner dance. Even now, with unfamiliar partners it is a struggle to have to be so physically close to them, especially when there is often an element of physical effort as well.

By all means introduce it, but with great sensitivity and care, and remember that it has its own set of technical difficulties at a time when the learning is already difficult enough. There is no reason to expect a raw beginner to love CE as much as you do or have the same attitude towards it. So take care what you are inflicting on them.

I would think that with a first time beginner, a practica setting would be much better than at a milonga. You'd mostly likely need to explain a few things to a new beginner, IMO.

Mario7 said:

What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ... Hopefully, this thread will help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.:applause:

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although I am not sure exaclty what you are asking;

there are small relaxed milongas where I would dance with a near or total novice but others which if say too crowded, or too much sticklers for etiquette. ( ie snobs) but i know teachers who would discourage beginners from attending milongas until they had three months experience.

I wouldnt dance close embrace with a novice unless they had very good posture/balance and groundedness, and again taking on board whether they feel comfortable in close embrace.

if I caught you teaching on the dance floor in one of my milongas I would ask you to leave, close embrace or not. (Buenos Aires Codigo #12; No teaching at milongas)

but as DB has pointed out there are many practi-longas around...

Of course if you are asking this question you probably ought not to be dancing with beginners as you might put them off. I get alot of that people who say " i tried dancing tango but i had this awful experience with a man/woman who...blah blah blah..."

Mario7 said:

Please excuse my specifying C.E. but my opinion is that beginners should begin with C.E. anyway. This opinion has even been expressed by some Nuevo teachers and so hardly controversial. I also am narrowing this down to the more experienced leader's dance with the beginning follower.
What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ... Hopefully, this thread will help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.:applause:

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I no not agree that beginners should start with CE. I prefer to start them with OE, so they begin to understand basic concepts of tango while controlling and learning about their own balance/axis. Only after that do I begin teaching them apilado. This applies to classes and private lessons.

At milongas I can dance with total beginners in a CE (not apilado) and give them a decent dance using only forward/back steps, side steps and pauses. A LOT of dancing can be done with only those steps, including plenty of nuance. But, I think it takes an experienced leader to understand that, and be able to deliver.

Actually, I think a complete beginner is often easier to dance with than one who has finished an 8-week series. Total beginners have no mental concepts interferring with their ability to physically follow. After a beginner's series followers frequently are all "mental" about their dancing, and it takes them months before they get back to feeling the dance, rather than thinking it.

Re: beginners in CE

Mario7 said:

... my opinion is that beginners should begin with C.E. anyway. This opinion has even been expressed by some Nuevo teachers...

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I do agree, so what´s the point? :cheers:

(think we do not agree about the ending, which is the open embrace, because it is by far the more demanding and intricate variant...)

....it seems that further explaination is needed... (thanks to the Tango devide)
Well, I don't dance open hold. I only dance close embrace. Recently, I've found occassion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

To be a missionary on the dance floor would leave a bad taste.... and would do a disservice to your ideas.

But to be authentically in your way of dancing and interpreting music is the normal way.

Mario7 said:

... Recently, I've found occassion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

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It takes two to tango, but it fairly well takes a whole community, also. I don't know if you have a moral obligation, but I do think dancers should make an effort to support the community in which they dance.

I also find some personal satisfaction in helping devoted students to learn.

Mario7 said:

..... I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

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why do you feel morally bound to do something you dont enjoy and/or cant do?

surely you are advocating traditional Argentine tango values and by this ethos no-one should attend a milonga unless they have a good eighteen months practice?

i keep shifting beginners in and out of close embrace in my classes; keeping their axis and balance has nothing to do with the embrace but their strentgth of core and their understanding of what is required to follow;(equally true of leaders)

If a beginner is up to 1yr experience that I would dance CE.
B/C in school I attend CE is done after 3-5 months.

A lot of follower find CE at the beginning very demanding.
So putting to soon in CE is pointless.
Leaders and followers should get proper basics in OE to dance properly CE.

I don't need to offend you Mario7, but it seems that you are close minded.
Dance OE and open your mind.

I used to help beginners but I know that I am not qualified for that so I stopped and it's quite demanding for me so I'd rather dance.
Maybe I say sth about what is really noticeable and point that they look for the instructor.

Mario7 said:

....it seems that further explanation is needed... (thanks to the Tango divide)

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It seems to me that tango life is (or at least was in the Golden Age)
simpler in BsAs. If you wanted to learn/dance social tango it was in the embrace.
Variations there may have been but social tango meant dancing in a hug.
If you didn't like inviting your partner to share your space and he/she
didn't like sharing similarly then you didn't learn tango. It was your choice.

In the US and Europe tango seems to be made so much more complicated with
its variations of hold and its introduction of fantasia/nuevo to the social scene,
some of which was clearly the result of argentinian show dancers responding
to the desire of people to learn what they were doing.

Mario7 said:

Well, I don't dance open hold. I only dance close embrace. Recently, I've found occasion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

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You surely aren't under any moral obligation to dance with beginners who
aren't learning to dance within the embrace. If you cannot accommodate
the not untypical reaction of Madahlia and dance open then beginners
from those classes are not for you. Why fret about it?

You can already see from the posts what a wide variety of opinions there are.
You've decided what you want your dance to be, be true to it and make
that the best you can. Trying to cope with the results of other teaching methods
and solutions is likely to just compromise your own dance.

So now you have yet another different opinion.

Mladenac said:

A lot of follower find CE at the beginning very demanding.
So putting to soon in CE is pointless.
Leaders and followers should get proper basics in OE to dance properly CE.

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Does this mean that they find OE to be easier (or require less skill)?

Mladenac said:

I don't need to offend you Mario7, but it seems that you are close minded.
Dance OE and open your mind.

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I find this interesting. I actually agree with the first sentence, but not the second. If someone doesn't like OE, why would doing it make them more open minded? I generally don't dance with people who do OE, (unless they are a beginner, or something), because I don't enjoy it much. However, I couldn't care less if others dance in OE.

I agree with you, we should not make proselytes! But, just asked, dont you find that some pieces require OE? I hate to commit myself to one style, only. I want to decide spntaneouly how to interpret the music.

opendoor said:

I agree with you, we should not make proselytes! But, just asked, dont you find that some pieces require OE? I hate to commit myself to one style, only. I want to decide spntaneouly how to interpret the music.

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I haven't (yet) found that I need to go to a true open embrace to express myself, but I can accept/understand that others might. For me, changing from more of an apilado style embrace to a Villa Urquiza style embrace is what I strive for (depending on the music and the partner).

I will admit that some followers will open up the embrace (some) when doing figures, and I certainly will accommodate their wishes, when that happens.