West Coast Swing 1960s

Steve Pastor

Steve Pastor

Administrator
Staff member
I've got a couple things in addition to this clip I want to post here.
I am interested in your comments.

By way of introduction to this one, Lawrence Welk began his TV show, which was at that time broadcast locally, at the Aragon Ballroom on the Lick Pier in Santa Monica, CA (LA area) in 1951. One of Welk's competitors was the Western Swing band leader Spade Cooley, who had his own show, who had the #1 show in LA for years.
(The Aragon had been booking Western Swing bands in 1944, and for an unspecifiied time thereafter.)

When I learned this I wondered if dancers to Welk's music did Western Swing / West Coast Swing. I was researching Bill Black's Combo, and noticed Welk's 1961 hit "Calcutta", and then happened on this clip.

Looks to me like there is WCS in there at the beginning.


Comments?
 
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Steve, have you ever thought about compiling all this interesting dance history into a book one day? Or maybe contribute some of it to, say, Wikipedia? You've found some real gems...
 
Have put an awful lot into Wikipedia already. But, I think I've exceeded the bounds of that outlet as far as the great amount of detail I've discovered. (I've got a pretty extensive record now, as a Wiki editor!)

I've been spending the last hour or so researching the history of Bill Black's Combo, because TangoTime and The Enycopedia of Social Dance both mentioned the group's music for doing WCS/Western Swing. Right now I'm on their version of "White Silver Sands", which has been recorded many times, it turns out. Last thing I saw said it had Argentine overtones??? I'll have to listen again, and look into that.

The Combo's music used a shuffle beat, that most musicologists write is pretty much a slow swing. London Records, who distributed their tunes (issued by Hi Records) advertised their stuff as dance music.
Etc, etc, etc

So, yeah, it looks like I'm in this for the long haul! Web site? Book? Multi media book would be best, I would think 'cause it could have samples, examples, video clips, etc. (I understand there is such a thing now.) Just think of the work involved!
 
Steve Pastor said:
Have put an awful lot into Wikipedia already. But, I think I've exceeded the bounds of that outlet as far as the great amount of detail I've discovered. (I've got a pretty extensive record now, as a Wiki editor!)

I've been spending the last hour or so researching the history of Bill Black's Combo, because TangoTime and The Enycopedia of Social Dance both mentioned the group's music for doing WCS/Western Swing. Right now I'm on their version of "White Silver Sands", which has been recorded many times, it turns out. Last thing I saw said it had Argentine overtones??? I'll have to listen again, and look into that.

The Combo's music used a shuffle beat, that most musicologists write is pretty much a slow swing. London Records, who distributed their tunes (issued by Hi Records) advertised their stuff as dance music.
Etc, etc, etc

So, yeah, it looks like I'm in this for the long haul! Web site? Book? Multi media book would be best, I would think 'cause it could have samples, examples, video clips, etc. (I understand there is such a thing now.) Just think of the work involved!
Click to expand...

Steve, more power to you. Your passion shows! :cheers:
 
I'm curious about how many of you have heard instructors of WCS speak of either "dancer's blues", as Skippy Blair did in a converstion with me earlier this year, or "shuffle rhythm".

???
 
Steve Pastor said:
I'm curious about how many of you have heard instructors of WCS speak of either "dancer's blues", as Skippy Blair did in a converstion with me earlier this year, or "shuffle rhythm".

???
Click to expand...

"Dancer's blues"? Hmmm. In what context, I wonder. Not a dancer's mood, I take it! And "shuffle rhythm"? Only thing that comes to mind is the Fort Worth Shuffle; but in terms of WCS, it's a blank... :)
 
Ray Sison said:
"Dancer's blues"? Hmmm. In what context, I wonder. Not a dancer's mood, I take it! And "shuffle rhythm"? Only thing that comes to mind is the Fort Worth Shuffle; but in terms of WCS, it's a blank... :)
Click to expand...

Shuffle rhythm is a musical term, not a dance one; it does not refer to dance steps. The shuffle rhythm is extremely common in blues songs, and, at the right tempo, they are the classic sound for WCS. One is example is Sweet Home Chicago.

To describe it terms of music notation, there's a triplet and the middle note is not played. There are some sound examples here.
 
jennyisdancing said:
Shuffle rhythm is a musical term, not a dance one; it does not refer to dance steps. The shuffle rhythm is extremely common in blues songs, and, at the right tempo, they are the classic sound for WCS. One is example is Sweet Home Chicago.

To describe it terms of music notation, there's a triplet and the middle note is not played. There are some sound examples here.
Click to expand...

jennyisdancing, thanks for explaining that! I had no idea at all. I'll check out that info on Wikipedia... :cheers:
 
Just lost a farily long post... ARRR....
So, this will be short. (Ha)

So, I guess not many WCS teachers talk about shuffle rhythm and how it is similar to swing?


New Grove Dictionary of Jazz lists a dance step as the #1 definition of "shuffle". The term is commonly used in country western dance. #2 in that source is "A rhythm derived from the dance step."

Shuffle is pretty much "slow swing", which is why it became popular for WCS, I have come to believe. (Yes, there are sources that agree.)

(I have seen no documentation that most of the music currently considered to be classic, was used until the 80s (web sites don’t count). Right now dancing to shuffle rhythm appears to have started with groups like Bill Black's Combo beginning in the 60s. And that IS documented
(Unless you want to count "Hook Line and Sinker" as danced to in "Don't Knock the Rock") .)

(Oh, and shuffle rhythm known as Ray Price Shuffle, Texas Shuffle, etc, became part of the Nashville Sound around 1956 (listen to "Crazy Arms"), but had been used in Western Swing, too.)


Big band swing rhythm sections played a steady rhythm. For guitarists it was called a "sock rhythm". It appears that the soloists and/or sections of the band did their "syncopated" thing.

Makes me wonder... when comparing to cotemporary Argentine Tango where we are free to dance to whichever of the strains in the music...

One book I’m reading lists Louis Jordan’s "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie" as classic jump band shuffle rhythm.

It appears the Louis Jordan's use of a shuffle rhythm was influenced by German born trumpeter Henry Busse, and Jan Savitt, who had a popular band in Philadelphia.
And "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie", Jordan’s most popular song was written in part by Denver Darling was born and raised in Jewett, Illinois, and appeared on the WLS National Barn Dance radio show. He then became an “urban cowboy” headliner performing at the Western themed Village Barn on West 4th Street in Greenwich Village after moving to New York City in 1937. He also had a radio show on WOR and a recording contract with Decca. Darling’s material had a light swing, and he often recorded with jazz musicians. The other writer played steel guitar and wrote many country songs.
[Let the Good Times Roll: The Story of Louis Jordan and His Music pages 32, 128]
[Country music: a biographical dictionary By Richard Carlin page 96]


I'm just trying really hard to understand all of this. And the research is taking me to places that I find interesting.

 
Here's a list of ranges listed from written sources for both Western Swing and West Coast Swing.
Also a link that documents perceived and actual swing ratios.

Year - Range - Ideal Note
1953+ 83 - 131 Songs listed For Studying Phrasing in Swing
1958
1960 72 - 240 half-time to 200 - 240 bpm
1960 112 - 260 half-time above 160 and up to 260 bpm
1971 ---à>>> 112
2006 100-130 (give or take)
2008 60 - 180 128
112-128

http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/friberg.html
 
Steve Pastor said:
Just lost a farily long post... ARRR....
So, this will be short. (Ha)

So, I guess not many WCS teachers talk about shuffle rhythm and how it is similar to swing?


New Grove Dictionary of Jazz lists a dance step as the #1 definition of "shuffle". The term is commonly used in country western dance. #2 in that source is "A rhythm derived from the dance step."

Shuffle is pretty much "slow swing", which is why it became popular for WCS, I have come to believe. (Yes, there are sources that agree.)

(I have seen no documentation that most of the music currently considered to be classic, was used until the 80s (web sites don’t count). Right now dancing to shuffle rhythm appears to have started with groups like Bill Black's Combo beginning in the 60s. And that IS documented
(Unless you want to count "Hook Line and Sinker" as danced to in "Don't Knock the Rock") .)

(Oh, and shuffle rhythm known as Ray Price Shuffle, Texas Shuffle, etc, became part of the Nashville Sound around 1956 (listen to "Crazy Arms"), but had been used in Western Swing, too.)


Big band swing rhythm sections played a steady rhythm. For guitarists it was called a "sock rhythm". It appears that the soloists and/or sections of the band did their "syncopated" thing.

Makes me wonder... when comparing to cotemporary Argentine Tango where we are free to dance to whichever of the strains in the music...

One book I’m reading lists Louis Jordan’s "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie" as classic jump band shuffle rhythm.

It appears the Louis Jordan's use of a shuffle rhythm was influenced by German born trumpeter Henry Busse, and Jan Savitt, who had a popular band in Philadelphia.
And "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie", Jordan’s most popular song was written in part by Denver Darling was born and raised in Jewett, Illinois, and appeared on the WLS National Barn Dance radio show. He then became an “urban cowboy” headliner performing at the Western themed Village Barn on West 4th Street in Greenwich Village after moving to New York City in 1937. He also had a radio show on WOR and a recording contract with Decca. Darling’s material had a light swing, and he often recorded with jazz musicians. The other writer played steel guitar and wrote many country songs.
[Let the Good Times Roll: The Story of Louis Jordan and His Music pages 32, 128]
[Country music: a biographical dictionary By Richard Carlin page 96]


I'm just trying really hard to understand all of this. And the research is taking me to places that I find interesting.

Click to expand...

Researching something that you have a passion for can be so fascinating. :cheers: I learn something new when I read so many of your posts...
 
In 1933, while playing at the Forest Club in Miami Beach, his pianist-arranger, Paul Sprosty, came up with a lively, "shuffle rhythm" at the keyboard, and Busse decided to adopt it as one of the sounds of his group. [http://www.bigbandlibrary.com/henrybusse.html
Jan Savitt, born Jacob Servetnick in St. Petersburg, Russia in 1908, employed shuffle rhythm with a good deal more swing than Busse, and was known for that rhythm. "It was a great commercial seller," according to one of the members of his band, although his recording titled "Shuffle Rhythm" (1937) on Variety Records was not released at the time.
Louis Jordan would become one of the most successful users of the shuffle rhythm in the 40s.
So, when Bill Black's Combo employed the same rhythmic device in the early 60s to great acclaim, it had a fairly long history.
Use of the Combo's music for Western Swing (aka West Coast Swing) is documented in a book copyrighted in 1971.
 
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