what makes a leader/follower good

Hi
I've ran into this now a couple of times, and sometimes i've been p*ss*d because things didn't turn out very well.

So now for you the question - what makes a lead good, what makes a follow good.

is a lead good when..

.. he leads clearly and uses proper technique?
.. he can make awesome moves?
.. he is creative?
.. he can make a lot of stylings?
.. he can make his follower have fun/ enjoy the dance?
.. he has a good feeling for his and his partners body?
.. he adjustes his lead to the level of his follower?
.. evereything above comes together?

is a follower good when she..
.. follows what is lead in the way it is lead (recons the difference between counterbalance and arm-lead)?
.. flourishes the dance with her own stylings/hijacks?
.. feels the music and creates little stylings of her own?
.. adjusts the amount of stylings to the level of the leader ?
.. can make any leader feel good?
.. follows off-beat leads?
.. can put all of the above into the dance?

- i did not make this a poll to not limit the answers choice. looking forward to your answers!
luh

it varies as you grow in the dance.

when you're new:
leader: clean leads, solid frame
follow: responsive, continues moving, solid frame

when you've been dancing a little while:
leader: same as above, but expanded move vocabulary, some experimentation keeps things interesting
follow: same as above, but should begin experimenting with variations within the lead

as an intermediate dancer:
leader: same as above, but continues to expand vocab, shows musicallity, begins dancing more with partner as a set, more comfortable fooling around and experimenting, but still should be clear to follow
follow: same as above, begins influencing the dance more, giving some feedback within the dance, doing move variations, dancing to the music more

as an intermediate+ dancer:
leader same as above, but things flow, dance is 3-way, between the leader, follower and music, continues to increase vocabulary, definitive, conscientious, deliberate lead
follow: all of the above, able to play, feedback clearly, dance is 3-way, very musical

Of course, fun is always paramount, but all these things make things more fun. And this isn't any kind of definative list, it's mostly inspired by the break up that westie judges seem to use to judge comps. I'm sure there's a thread on it at www.strictlywestie.com that breaks it down more clearly.

--J

I have also known a lot of male dancers who feel they are a good lead, but do a few things that make it very difficult to follow. Some guys I dance with feel like they have to make the girl dance instead of telling the girl what he wants her to do and supporting her while she does it. For example, I know of a lot of dancers who decide that it is their job to spin the girl instead of being a support and letting the girl know that he would like her to spin. This creates a motion that is too forceful. When I am dancing and a guy does this, it usually throws me off-balance. I am sure more advanced dancers can compensate and stay on balance, but I can't. So, I think an essential part of a good lead is making it look like you are making the girl do the dancing, but in reality you are really just clueing her in on what you want her to do and you are there at the right moments to support her in her movements. This creates a strong lead without a forceful lead.

I smile is worth more than good technique.

I've danced with a few follows lately that whenever I mess up they smile. When we're doing well they're focusing so hard on dancing well that they're grimmacing and it's just painful.

So I have to back up the smile thing. I'd rather have a decent dance with someone that's having a good time than a perfect dance with someone who's working so hard they forget to have fun.

Ok, to me, what makes a good leader, is leading with the least force and tension necesary to lead the PARTICULAR follower in that pattern. Yes, this means varying the lead to the follower.

The most painful (not physically, but... eh, spiritually) thing a leader can do when Im dancing with him, other than being grossly off time, is overlead me. The lighter the lead, the better I follow.

For a follower, well, following with the least possible resistance necesary to execute the pattern.

Thats just my philosophy.

In Swing the answer is probably the same as in other partner dances. In a word, I would say the key is 'connection'. I suppose in its' loosest form this is the ability to form a partnership with another person to dance together to a piece of music.

There is a good reference source on this subject here ...

http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/

A dancer starts with his attention on the floor, then his intructor will raise his attention to shoulder height with the lead happens, then the dancer will develop enough skill to transfer his attention to his partner, that is when leading begins.

I would add that attention may go to partner's arms/shoulders before it finally settles on leading the partner's center.

Or maybe not finally... soon it trasncends details and just becomes dancing. Though in figuring out why something didn't work, analyzing it from the perspective of the partner's center probably makes sense.

i've kept this stuff in mind - juggling around in my head - by now i've reached the point where i have the question going on -

can you actually classify what is good - and HOW good?
luh

luh said:

i've kept this stuff in mind - juggling around in my head - by now i've reached the point where i have the question going on -

can you actually classify what is good - and HOW good?
luh

Click to expand...

HOW good is difficult - it implies some sort of absolute scale. There are a couple places in west coast swing where it tends to stand out starkly (for me, that is usually the degree of extension in the connection - champions are using noticably more extension than the next highest stratification) but I'm not sure that I can alway chop it up into nice neat boxes (so much extension is good, so much more extension is really good, etc).

What I'm watching for in leaders:

thinking - if I can spot where you had to start paying attention to what you were doing, you get a downcheck. It normally shows up as an interruption in what ought to be a smooth movement. This is where most showcase performances leave me cold - the choreography requires that the leader pay attention to the safety of the stunt instead of the dance. 10 out of 10 for priorities, but I'm not impressed.

effort - if I can see the work being done (both when you are doing it, and how much you are putting into it), you get a down check. Effort is the primary metric I use for self criticism - if I have to work at it, I'm doing something wrong

lead - if I can anticipate the lead from the sidelines, you get a downcheck, but a small one. "You aren't following him, you are reading his mind" is the target here. I love moves that "come out of nowhere.

On the positive side... music. If I can turn off the music, and still know what song is playing, that's a big win. That covers physical expression of the music as well as choreographic interpretation (including the "choreography on the fly" that is used for social dancing).

Obviously (?) all of this implies that the basics (Timing, Foot placement, etc) are present. A different scale has to be used for leaders who are still getting out of their own way.

i was thinking about lindy hop.

but still - of course there is always a technical side - but there is more - you said effort - well - i know people that go crazy - but still - they are not good at all. so effort alone doesn't make it.

it's weird - i keep on looking at dancers and think - wow that was good, or not at all. but i have no clue what all puts together. sometimes the dancers are great - but somehow there is something missing. but how will you measure that? is this just a feeling of me or can others see that as well?
luh

That is kind of the definition of pro-am isn't it? The pro ladies are considerably better than their am leader. So they should all be equal in following and the ability of the leaders are compared with other. The novice does a pretty nice job doing all the things mentioned in this thread while the advanced leader does a great job.

nope i don't think about competition. so - no pro-am stuff. it's speaking in general terms. it's like abstracting it. don't think to direct. later on you can still apply it. but thinking about simple cases doesn't help when you later think about complicate cases.
luh

little_jazz said:

I smile is worth more than good technique.

Click to expand...

We attendent a swing dance, were there was a large number of unattached young dancers. The two most popular dancers amoung them were a young lady, who was a long way from the best dancer, but smiled at the leader at the end of each manuever, as if to say nice lead and thanks for leading something I can do. A young man who was an excellent dancer and gave the follower a look of approval and a smile at the end of each manuever. It did not matter if it was a basic or complex move, they got the smile.

Both left very tired, because they danced so much.