Ocho technique

Hiya, another question this time for the followers:
When I practice Ochos should I be holding on to something? I've been placing two fingers on a kitchen unit to minimise any "pushing off" or over balancing, but I'm not sure how good that is. I also try to do them free standing with my arms open, but it feels much harder to pivot. I always collect first then pivot with my ankles glued, is this right? What can I do to improve this? Primarily I've been doing this to build up the muscles for my balance and I think it works quite well - especially in my 3.5" heels. Are there any better techniques/drills I could use to perfect my balance?
Any tips thankfully recieved!
Cheers!

I've used tops of chairs to practice before, counter-tops all with heights similar to a ballet barre. I've never beena fan of using a wall except as a last case option becasue it is too easy, as you say, to use the wall to "push". I think doing them free standing is also very good becasue then you learn to completely rely on your own balance, not your partner, to accomplish them.

I try to think of collecting my knees, since those are over my ankles.

I think practicing ochos is one of the best ways to improve your tango, period. Practicing them without any assistance is best too. It can be slow hard work but eventually you will build the strength and find the balance to execute even the slowest ocho with grace and control, and you will feel so proud when you get there!

Collect first and then pivot is absolutely correct. Just be sure that, when you ocho, your weight is completely on the supporting foot - no weight at all on the collecting foot. Also, try to keep your weight over the ball of the rotating foot and not so much on the heel.

I think the one habit that can develop from practicing ochos by yourself is the tendency to turn the body as a whole. As you advance in your ocho practice, try to be aware of the separation of your lower body from your upper. When you ocho with a partner, you will be trying to face him at all times (maintaining your tango embrace or circle). I guess I am saying, try to face your torso as much front as possible while rotating from the waist down while you practice on your own. Otherwise, you may build the habit of rolling out of your partners' embrace.

P.S. If you are new to tango, I would say lose the high heels until you have built your strength. Otherwise it's a bit like a ballet dancer learning how to dance in pointe shoes.

All great tips!
So, I thought when you do ochos, the turning force is coming from the obliques, the twist being from the dissociation between the hips and ribs as the lower half catches up with the top half... umm not sure how well I am explaining how it feels... is this OK? Should I be using my core muscles to do the pivot or does it come from somewhere else? At the moment i try to keep my upper body parallel to a fixed point and make it so only my hips change direction is this good or bad? I've been doing a lesson and Milonga once a week for 2 years but spend a lot of time in between ochoing in the kitchen and doing giros around office swivel chairs. Not sure how popular I am at work, I'm sure they all think I'm bonkers!

My most preferred choice in practicing ochos was to stand in front of the fridge with two fingers on each side, such that if I used too much pressure or tried to "push" on the wrong side, the fridge would open. It also allowed me to put small impulses through my arms to communicate to the rest of my body how it's supposed to move, yet made me stay on my own balance as much as I needed to. Great practice for receiving those most subtle of signals from a lead. And yes, the core works well in this. Always use your core. It determines how responsive you can be, and how intense you and your partner can make your dance. Ocho practice is no exception.

jfm said:

All great tips!
So, I thought when you do ochos, the turning force is coming from the obliques, the twist being from the dissociation between the hips and ribs as the lower half catches up with the top half... umm not sure how well I am explaining how it feels... is this OK?

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Sounds like a great explanation - at least, that's the way it's been explained to me also, most recently by Kicca Tomassi - powered by the lats and the dissociation.

I think you've got a firm grip on the concept

I had a bit of a think because despite all my practice, things to seem to fall apart a bit when I dance with a partner, I think the problem is that I'm being led to pivot before I can collect, I have tried collecting faster, but then I lose the music and it doesn't feel good, how can I make my partner give me a little more time? Is there a trick of the embrace to block the move until I've finished? It happens more often on backward ochos. I don't want to actually say something because it usually happens more at the milonga and it's a bit of a faux pas innit?

1. If you feel your being led into the next step before you are ready, then resist. Each step should be invited by the leader.

2. An exercise to build up strength in the legs is to stand with feet hip width apart and pivot on both feet at the same time- like doing the twist or stubbing out a cigarette, move your wight over one leg then the other as you do so.

3. All the above is good advice.

Novice said:

My most preferred choice in practicing ochos was to stand in front of the fridge with two fingers on each side, such that if I used too much pressure or tried to "push" on the wrong side, the fridge would open.

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:uplaugh:

My only problem with that would be...

Me: Ocho... oops.
*door swings open*
Me: Oooooh, cold pizza! Yummy!
*takes out slice and walks away from fridge, happily munching*

LOL! That and then I would have several cats in direct attendance...could make it a good lesson in floorcraft and obstactle avoidance though... ;-P

I'm going to give you a "quick" suggestion. Take a smaller step when your foot goes behind your standing leg. Smaller step = less distance for your collecting foot to travel.
If the people you dance with stay with the music, they should be able to expect you to keep up with the music, don't you think?
If they don't.... All bets are off.
One problem I see is that most people practice and dance big ochos. So you expect to take a big step when you do an ocho, regardless.

You ask about a secret in the embrace. It goes all the way into the floor, actually. You resist movement, trying to stay connected to the floor. If your posture is good, and you hold your body "taut" (not slack), and you are connected to your partner by keeping your weight towards him, and your arms are also "taut", he will feel your resistence.
Sometime you could practice making yourself "heavy", then "light", but you'll need a partner. Maybe at a practica, if you have one to go to. (You could actually sneak just a tiny bit of this in at a milonga, me thinks.)

Come to think of it, just taking a smaller step behind in your ocho will make you feel "heavier".

Fair warning... Not all men want the woman to have this kind of presence in the dance. More's the pity.

Another suggestions for "quick":

As far as i understand there are actually at least two different ochos. One of the extreme endpoints of the spectrum would be - step, collect, pivot, step collect where the "step" is a straight step in the direction the hip is pointing, the hip pivots completely into the direction of the next step, and the the next step is again a straight step. The other end point is for backwards ochos something close to "diagonal step crossing behind the standing leg", "diagonal step crossing behind the other leg". This second approach seems to be popular with people who like milonga because it is much quicker.

The lead for this kind of ocho might very well feel like "there is no time for collection before the pivot", because the lead is more alternating diagonal backwards impulses than pivots+steps.

GSSH

Me said:

:uplaugh:

My only problem with that would be...

Me: Ocho... oops.
*door swings open*
Me: Oooooh, cold pizza! Yummy!
*takes out slice and walks away from fridge, happily munching*

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LOL!!! You and me both!

Gssh said:

Another suggestions for "quick":

As far as i understand there are actually at least two different ochos. One of the extreme endpoints of the spectrum would be - step, collect, pivot, step collect where the "step" is a straight step in the direction the hip is pointing, the hip pivots completely into the direction of the next step, and the the next step is again a straight step. The other end point is for backwards ochos something close to "diagonal step crossing behind the standing leg", "diagonal step crossing behind the other leg". This second approach seems to be popular with people who like milonga because it is much quicker.

The lead for this kind of ocho might very well feel like "there is no time for collection before the pivot", because the lead is more alternating diagonal backwards impulses than pivots+steps.

GSSH

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Yup. My teacher refers to those as "pivoting" ochos, and "non-pivoting"/"swinging"/"crossed"/"milonguero" ochos.

I'd add a third variation. If you're dancing milonga and are led in a series of very fast ochos, you'll tend to feel like you're almost split-weighted. There isn't a lot of time for the pretty collect and pivot thing. It still happesn, but it's so fast they almost feel like swivels. (To me, at least.)

Thanks this all so helpful! I shall try taking smaller steps- I think that's better for staying balanced no? I tend to only do "milonguero" style ochos when dancing in close embrace but I might try it in open as well and see what happens.