Molinete speed variations?

D

Dave Bailey

Active Member
I did a class on Friday, and one of the topics covered as an aside was the timinig of the molinete (giro). The teacher was quite adamant that the non-pivoting steps in the sequence (forward and sidestep) are done at double-time, whereas the pivoting parts are done at single-time.

So you'd have a sequence for a clockwise pattern of:
  1. Forward step on right (quick)
  2. Pivot and sidestep on left (slow)
  3. Pivot and backstep on right (slow)
  4. Sidestep on left (quick)
Previously when I've learnt that pattern, each step in the sequence has been at the same speed. But I can see the logic behind her argument, and it may also feel more natural - what's the Approved Way?
 
Dave Bailey said:
ISo you'd have a sequence for a clockwise pattern of:
  1. Forward step on right (quick)
  2. Pivot and sidestep on left (slow)
  3. Pivot and backstep on right (slow)
  4. Sidestep on left (quick)
Previously when I've learnt that pattern, each step in the sequence has been at the same speed. But I can see the logic behind her argument, and it may also feel more natural - what's the Approved Way?
Click to expand...

An exercise in employing the Giro at different rhythmical riffs. One or more steps double-time the others in slow. So I wouldn't say there was an "approved way" as such. Just a finer interpretation/execution perhaps.
 
The approved way is however the leader leads it. Or, for a non-smart-alec response, I don't think there is an Approved Way.

I've never heard of what your teacher said. Not to say it's wrong--perhaps it was in context at the time. But, personally, seems like a bunch of b.s. The timing can be whatever the leader wants it to be. And I've never been told to practice it at varying speeds like that--every teacher I've run across, and they've all mentioned the same exercise (giro around something on the floor...endlessly), has stressed making all the steps the same "speed" for the sake of practicing.

Then there's the issue of doing a back step in the giro without a separated pivot, but instead swinging the leg around. I wonder what the teacher would say about that little variation.
 
Peaches said:
The approved way is however the leader leads it. Or, for a non-smart-alec response, I don't think there is an Approved Way.

I've never heard of what your teacher said. Not to say it's wrong--perhaps it was in context at the time.
Click to expand...
If I understood her correctly, she seemed to say that this timing was the natural and "standard" timing for the sequence. I did express some surprise to her at this and mentioned that I'd always been taught even-speed sequences, but she seemed pretty certain, and her argument made sense.

It was Jennifer Olson, by the way (I wouldn't want to be accused of hiding teacher identities :) ) - she was the visiting teacher at Negracha last week.

Peaches said:
every teacher I've run across, and they've all mentioned the same exercise (giro around something on the floor...endlessly), has stressed making all the steps the same "speed" for the sake of practicing.
Click to expand...
Me too. Until now, which is why I'm a little confused...
 
Meh. I wouldn't worry about it. She's one teacher with one opinion. For the sake of the class and the exercise, do it her way...then do it however it makes you happy.

Like so many other things in tango, there is no definitive right or wrong...except when you're in that teacher's class!
 
I've actually heard this before, so I wouldn't discount it totally -- I mean, there are at least two people spreading this idea. ;)

I haven't actually paid attention to which steps have the quick rhythm, but if a molinete is 4 steps, I do know that two of them often are done quickly... And thinking over the molinete where my teacher told me this, I think it was on sidestep & forward step, so that fits in with what she was saying. Although, i'll add that this particular molinete has the sidestep and forward step consecutively, instead of the forward step at first and sidestep last (it's just a matter of which step you start it with), so the two quick steps are done together.

however, having said all that -- it really comes down to what the leader leads. but i was told this is the 'default'. it's sort of like how leaders tend to exit ochos by taking an extra step with the left foot (ETA- i think i mean right, actually) (if not done via the cross, which is invariably how i prefer to exit ochos nowadays), tend to start the dance with their left foot, tend to -- well, there are all sorts of tendencies which it helps to break, so as to make sure your follower is paying attention. :) err, i mean, to make the dance more interesting! i'd never test my follows... *cough*

i often do molinetes that are all quick or all slow, and it's really been a while since i've paid attention to whether i'm leading two quick steps, much less which steps she's on (for the quicks)... so i wouldn't be too rabid about it.
 
Dave Bailey said:
It was Jennifer Olson, by the way (I wouldn't want to be accused of hiding teacher identities :) ) - she was the visiting teacher at Negracha last week. quote]

Ouch!! Read this and immediately pictured (and heard the arrow) in the Strongbow advert. Whoooosssshh, bong, bong, target. Ha, ha, ha.

Anyway, back to the Giro. My very first teacher had us doing the turns around a chair whilst partnered up (yep, plenty of sore knees/chins) whilst having us all chant: T....A.....NGO as we did so. (i.e. stepping on the beat of each letter - slow, slow, fast, fast, fast). A dance class now sounding like a Call to Prayer Tango Stylie. I guess differing peeps have differing styles and sounds as if JO was merely introducing another variation of the bog standard. Variations in movement is good if only to fit in with the variations of musical tracks.
Click to expand...
 
Heather2007 said:
Ouch!! Read this and immediately pictured (and heard the arrow) in the Strongbow advert. Whoooosssshh, bong, bong, target. Ha, ha, ha.
Click to expand...
:p

Heather2007 said:
Anyway, back to the Giro. My very first teacher had us doing the turns around a chair whilst partnered up (yep, plenty of sore knees/chins) whilst having us all chant: T....A.....NGO as we did so. (i.e. stepping on the beat of each letter - slow, slow, fast, fast, fast).
Click to expand...
Sounds a bit like Ballroom Tango timing to me...
 
Sorry for all the edits... haven't had my coffee this morning...

Dave Bailey said:
Previously when I've learnt that pattern, each step in the sequence has been at the same speed.
Click to expand...

I think you should stick with what you already know. Changing the speed of your steps in molinete will play havoc with the lead. We're turning him, after all.
 
hmm I think the answer is simpler than this: its damn difficult for a follwer to do an back ocho and step in a single beat; so she takes as long as she wants then catches up on the next two steps to bring herself back on the beat.

slow... ..............quick quick
ocho/backstep....side, forward
 
The approved way is that the back step is quick. That's because it's the uncomfortable step so you want to get rid of it.
Side step slow
back step quick
side step quick
forward step slow

Now I've heard the same teacher explaining one day that there is no approved sequence and the follower has to follow whatever the leader leads, be it quick-quick-quick-quick or slow-slow-slow-slow, and another day that the standard sequence is the above (quick back step).
 
Because of the complexity of the giro, it is taught (initially) as a set pattern of steps with a set "timing".

Here is an important point, however. You step and collect with each step, rather than do a simple grapevine, which involves no collecting between steps.

I've been trying for the past hour to come up with a simple, all encompassing paragraph on the "correct timing" deal, and it always ends up getting too analytical.

Let's leave it at "the steps should be in time with the music, rather than at some random intervals".

In the real world, most women do default molinetes, and most men just let 'em rip through it. I do this myself most of the time. When it feels like the woman has good enough techinque, I'll start mixing it up to see if she can follow the variations. Women who do not collect after each step cannot follow these variations.

Ideally, instructors instill good technique in their students at any level so that they will be able to progress without having to relearn things.

BTW you should know that it is only the lower body that should pivot as you take and complete each of these steps. This again has to do with being able to follow variations in the "standard pattern". Hopefully, that was at least mentioned.

Often, so much is thrown out in a lesson, that it is near impossible to take it all in.

As Peaches wrote, there is no "Approved Way", when it comes to the timing.
If we were talking Technique regarding collecting and keeping the upper body towards the pivot point at all times, however...
 
I'm sorry but I just can't stand any of this slow and quick stuff anymore, LOL. People use it all the time in ballroom, and all it seems to cause around here is for people to clip their steps in Foxtrot.

Since clipped steps are a common problem I see in molinete, I now wonder if this is because the women are being taught to think "quick quick."

I believe that none of the steps in molinete should be treated as faster or slower. All steps are full steps taken, not chasses. There is an ocho at the beginning of two of the steps and this does occupy some time, but keep in mind this ocho is also at the end of other steps. We should be spending the time at the end of that step to use our inner thighs to pull together for that ocho, and the beginning of the next step to resolve the ocho. Therefore, (for me) this makes little difference in speed of the steps that follow the ocho or precede it.

I use the ochos to drive the momentum of the molinete. The speed from the ocho (not the step) helps me do this.
 
newbie said:
The approved way is that the back step is quick. That's because it's the uncomfortable step so you want to get rid of it.
Side step slow
back step quick
side step quick
forward step slow

Now I've heard the same teacher explaining one day that there is no approved sequence and the follower has to follow whatever the leader leads, be it quick-quick-quick-quick or slow-slow-slow-slow, and another day that the standard sequence is the above (quick back step).
Click to expand...
This is one of the things I have heard, that the back and subsequent side steps should be quick. So if you did a back - side - front, it would be quick quick slow. Another person claimed that the first two steps should both be quick, regardless of where you start.

Sometimes, it seems like everyone has different ideas for how you are supposed to do it.

:confused:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Dance Ads

Advertise on Dance Forums Reach dancers, teachers, studios, event organizers, and dance-friendly brands. View ad options
Back
Top