The lead for tandem/behind the back-charleston

There are quite many moves that I have followed without being actually taught it first, but this is not one of them. Actually I have been taught it in a class some time ago, but still I have difficulties in following it. The move was taught without much emphasis om leading/following it - I blame it on that.

From facing each other, I am turned to my left - originally I was taught a little kick with my right foot out to the leader's right in the middle of the turn, and it feels fine so I do it. Now the leader is behind me. What is supposed to actually get me into charleston? My guess would be the left arm, but it seems most leaders expect me to do it even without it. It seems many many followers around do the tandem charleston even if the leader do not get the arms right. Do most everyone around me "cheat" a little bit meaning the followers guess what is going to happen because they recognise the start of the move... or is that not cheating at all? Is that how is should be followed? My guess is that the first step I do after the kick to the side should be the back step, but I really don't know.

If the lead is indeed physical during the start of charleston to get me into a back step, how can I make myself more sensitive to the lead? I mean, in theory I guess the leader could start just as in (this way of getting into) tandem charleston but ending up someplace else... right?

Good topic blue. I have made up my mind to restart doing my other dances, that is dances other than salsa, and I have clean forgot how to do this. Can anyone help us?

When you are led into it you are going forward, when you turn, your momentum should continue carrying you in the same direction, until your lead changes that direction. Most leads will get the hands correct if the follow keeps their direction/momentum.

Anytime one is following it is important for the lead to, well, to lead. The lead will theoretically lead movement in a direction, as well as when to stop, speed up, slow down, or change direction.

The best Charleston intro I have learned came from Jason and Sylvia. The lead starts with a tuck turn (rock step, tuck her in, turn her out). Footwork for both lead and follow after the rock step is kick step, kick step. On the second kick step the follow gathers her weight under her, while the lead loads the connection in the opposite direction.

At that point, the follow should feel like she ought to immediately go into the guy. The lead will then do another kick step "down the slot". This should lead the follow to do a "run, run". Finish off with a kick step. Now, both lead and follow are ready to go into Charleston on their left foot.

Otherwise, on all other moves, the guy will fake his footwork in order to match the follow at the same time.

The way I understand tandem/traveling charleston is: anything the leader does to get behind the follower is valid (as long as the leader can start tandem charleston on an odd beat, not a snare beat). It's only valid as a position change though; it's not automatically tandem charleston. She's not supposed to take it for granted that this is tandem charleston just because he's behind her. She's supposed to back rock on her left only when the leader moves her left arm forward in that unmistakable lindy charleston manner. If the left arm is not moved directly forward, he should be doing something besides tandem charleston. The follower can adjust by doing a really small back rock to enable her to get caught up instantly.

The video I watched that was instructing this made it too complicated for getting into tandem charleston, and it sounds similar to the example written above by swinginstyle. I think that a leader & follower should be able to get on their right feet & ready to go without some sort of 4-count preparation feet setup system. Either that, or just fix it when that left arm goes forward. I'd say that it's good for leaders to have a variety of ways to get into this position, but followers shouldn't be worried about tandem charleston until the 1 of tandem charleston.

if your still having trouble contact

info@shoutnfeelit.com

ask them where/who the best instructors in/around your area are. Take a private, you'll probably only need a half hour. They can tell you who will teach you to do it right. If your in Seattle USA by chance: Chris Chapman at the Russian Center (hepcatproductions) does about the best Charlston I have ever seen.

Nah, I don't think it is an instruction issue... really.

Since starting this thread, I have failed to get into the tandem charleston a few times in social setting - but also been led into it and it worked. I have this feeling that so much of leading/following on not-so-advanced-level in lindy is done on a "fake it 'til you make it" basis, and that tandom charleston is a prime example of this - probably because of the level when it is usually taught. It seems to me lots of people out there do the tandem charleston by the followers recognising the pattern, rather than being led into it... indeed, I have done tandem charleston with leaders who kept their hands absolutely still, and who expected me to still do the footwork. If I know what I am supposed to do, well, then it "works" and if I don't do a bit of guessing, the leader will be unhappy... he does not know 100% of his part, so OK in a social dancing setting we should cooperate.

I think the only thing I can do is to find out how the least complicated lead into it works (I think I have a decent hunch, but I would like to know also on a more conscious level) - I don't think I need a private class for this pretty basic stuff, there are people I can ask. Then, there are leaders and there are leaders. Some will lead me into it, with others it is a little bit more of a guessing/recognising pattern-game. I was very frustrated by this gray-zone some time ago, but I am starting to accept it I think.

Really, the thing that has helped me most - in this issue as well as others - is social dancing with good leaders. Not classes. Dancing with good leaders has helped me in handling dancing with less good leaders also... funny, is it not?

Conseptually I can see no way the leader can lead the fact that there will be kicking instead of other footwork, except for the fact that the tandem position and the type of movement doesn't lend it self very well to any other kind of footwork.

My take on this is that the lead leads the follow into the right position, and then proceeds with the right movement, and the follow knows that in this position the right kind of footwork is the charleston footwork.

In my opinion, the move is led, but the follow needs to know how to do it. The follow needs to know this element of Lindy called lindy-charleston in order to be able to follow the lead into charleston.

The entrance to charleston could be anything when the couples end in the charleston position, preferable with a momentum causing both partners to end up with a backstep on the left foot at an odd beat.

Flat Shoes said:

Conseptually I can see no way the leader can lead the fact that there will be kicking instead of other footwork, except for the fact that the tandem position and the type of movement doesn't lend it self very well to any other kind of footwork.

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It seems this kind of "initiated guessing" is a rather big part of lindy following.

Flat Shoes said:

My take on this is that the lead leads the follow into the right position, and then proceeds with the right movement, and the follow knows that in this position the right kind of footwork is the charleston footwork.

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The "right movement" would then be back step led by left arm moved forward.

Two things that are important in this lead: one - the momentum of the follow has to be directed straight back, towards the lead, after she turns, so that the tandem rock step is a natural continuation of that momentum. Second, and the most important: right before the tandem rock step, the lead has to keep the follow's weight *on her right* to (hopefully) prevent her from doing anything but the rock step.

swinginstyle said:

The lead starts with a tuck turn (rock step, tuck her in, turn her out). Footwork for both lead and follow after the rock step is kick step, kick step. On the second kick step the follow gathers her weight under her, while the lead loads the connection in the opposite direction.... The lead will then do another kick step "down the slot".... Finish off with a kick step.

Click to expand...

Could you give more details?.. I've seen this lead and tried to figure out how it went, but to no avail. What's the count here?? Is this a 10-count move? 6-ct tuck+two kick-steps as you describe makes 10 counts. But then the lead is on the wrong foot. Do both people face down the slot during the "lead's kick step, follow's run, run" bit? If so, where does the momentum come for turning around on the last kick step?

blue said:

Flat Shoes said:

Conseptually I can see no way the leader can lead the fact that there will be kicking instead of other footwork, except for the fact that the tandem position and the type of movement doesn't lend it self very well to any other kind of footwork.

Click to expand...

It seems this kind of "initiated guessing" is a rather big part of lindy following.

Click to expand...

I would not say it that way. You need to know the basic elements of the dance in order to put them together. You are led into the step, but you need to know the step in order to do it. The lindy charleston basic is a basic element.

It's just like spinning, pivoting, the tripple step, arm tension and frame etc. These are basic elements you need to know in order to different patterns.

When it comes to the patterns themselves, the different ways to lead a girl in charleston, between different variations of charelston, through spins, pivots, six count/eight count etc, this is 100% leadable.

If you start guessing what to do, then you're not letting yourself being led (or you're led porly), and the chance are you'll guess wrong an do wrong.

There are of course a few exceptions, these are mainly the aerials. But here guessing should not be done either, aerials should be choreographed.

I have to add, the above description is kind of ideal. Lindy Hop is not the easist dance, and there is plenty of possibilities for making errors. But that's okay. Making errors are part of the fun.

Keep dancing, and with time more and more pieces will fall into place. It only gets better.

dnquark said:

Two things that are important in this lead: one - the momentum of the follow has to be directed straight back, towards the lead, after she turns, so that the tandem rock step is a natural continuation of that momentum. Second, and the most important: right before the tandem rock step, the lead has to keep the follow's weight *on her right* to (hopefully) prevent her from doing anything but the rock step.

swinginstyle said:

The lead starts with a tuck turn (rock step, tuck her in, turn her out). Footwork for both lead and follow after the rock step is kick step, kick step. On the second kick step the follow gathers her weight under her, while the lead loads the connection in the opposite direction.... The lead will then do another kick step "down the slot".... Finish off with a kick step.

Click to expand...

Could you give more details?.. I've seen this lead and tried to figure out how it went, but to no avail. What's the count here?? Is this a 10-count move? 6-ct tuck+two kick-steps as you describe makes 10 counts. But then the lead is on the wrong foot. Do both people face down the slot during the "lead's kick step, follow's run, run" bit? If so, where does the momentum come for turning around on the last kick step?

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Yes, it's a 10 count move. Lead's footwork: Rock step (LR), Kick step (L), Kick step (R), Kick step (L), Kick step (R). So, the lead is now ready to use the left foot. Follow's footwork: Rock step (RL), Kick step (R), Kick step (L), run run (RL), kick step (R). So, now the follow is synchronized with the lead.

Say you're V'ed facing the audience. By the end of the 6 ct tuck turn part both people should be facing away from the audience down the slot. The first Kick step after the rock step is done toward the audience. The next kick step (5,6), the follow continues down the slot finishing her turn out to finish away from the audience. The lead will kick step in the opposite direction of the follow (i.e. away from the audience). This will weight the connection enough so that when the lead takes his next kick step down the slow (away from the audience), he will indicate that the follow has to run run to make it to him. That was 7,8. The last kick step (9,10) should be used to gather your centers and make any final adjustments.

For the momentum: The lead must weight the connection on the second kick step (5,6) by stepping away from the follow down the slot. The follow must completely fill the connection and stay grounded. As the couple hits count 6, you should already feel the momentum wanting to take over.

Hope this helps.

Flat Shoes said:

I have to add, the above description is kind of ideal. Lindy Hop is not the easist dance, and there is plenty of possibilities for making errors. But that's okay. Making errors are part of the fun.

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Exactly. In class, teachers usually describe this ideal situation. Unfortunately, I have to deal with reality - leader and follower try to find ways to adapt to each other's mistakes. If I did not do my very best to understand what the leaders are trying to do but insist on not going anywhere without being well led, I think I would get extremely unpopular among the less than excellent leaders.

swinginstyle said:

Yes, it's a 10 count move. Lead's footwork....

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Thanks swinginstyle, i walked through it with someone and it worked. I like the flow of it. Will try it on the social floor the next time I have a chance!..