Why would people dance NY style?

brujo

Well-Known Member
For those who are familiar with mambo and casino ( or, the older, rotational style of Colombian salsa ). What exactly is the appeal of the NY and LA styles?

The slotted positioning of NY/LA style, all the extraneous hand motions and styling, and the multiple spins all seem too artificial to me. Sure, it looks good if you want to show off, but with the more traditional styles you get to feel more. Am I wrong?
 
Slot dancing

I blame it on the shape of the room.

No, I'm serious.

Lots of lessons are taught in square/rectangular rooms. Many teachers make use of the walls as markers, to make it easy for their students to orientate themselves during the course of learning a combination. Hence students get used to using the 90/180 degree angles more than any other.

Without apportioning blame, dancers are not often encouraged to explore the points of flexibility in a dance element (aka. combination component) where new angles can be created; the different possible arcs of movement; how to anticipate, create and occupy available space.

A simple start would be to re-orientate the students into the corners so that they would be diagonal to the floor, two-thirds of the way into a lesson. That would encourage the use of 45 degree segments (corners in conjuntion with walls assuming a square floor).

I think that Eddie Torries is good to watch because of the angles he uses, although he teaches slot.

Just think, the Casino ballroom was circular, and what came out of it?

Approaching things from a different angle,
(Ugly pun, isn't it?)
Loo
 
brujo said:
The slotted positioning of NY/LA style, all the extraneous hand motions and styling, and the multiple spins all seem too artificial to me. Sure, it looks good if you want to show off, but with the more traditional styles you get to feel more. Am I wrong?
This has nothing to do with those particular styles and EVERYTHING to do with the dancers. I don't believe you feel more dancing casino/cuban/colombian style.
 
Number one, there are so many quality dancers. There are over 200 or 300 excellent dancers who look ordinary here, but would be superstars anywhere else. You also have some of the best teachers in the world, including Eddie Torres, Addie and Angel Rodriquez, Freddie Rios, and countless others. Then there is the incredible music scene. So many of the top Salsa bands reside here, and they play in the clubs all the time. You have over 120 latin clubs in the metropolitan area, and at least one club a night devoted to dancers. So to be a New York Salsero is to have tremendous resources and if your born here, you take it for granted.

Then there's the On 2 factor. Virtually all the schools teach on 2, the style made famous by Eddie Torres. Any dance event will be dominated by this style, and the attitude is, if you don't know how to dance on 2, you are not a good dancer. So to be a New York Salsero, usually means being a on 2 snob. This doesn't mean everyone dances on 2. Non-studio dancer who grew up dancing salsa in their homes learn to dance on 1 or 3, or without a sense of structured timing. This is most of New York. But of course, the dancers are the one you notice on the dance floor, and this becomes the predominant style.

Being a New York Salsero definitely means dealing with the New York attitude, and surviving. If you go to an Eddie Torres class, you see people who know the moves, and aren't very supportive if you don't it. If you make a mistake in partner work, you can expect a disapproving look, or condescending comment. If you survive, it only gets worse on the dance floor. Not all classes are like this, but the you can see the results in the attitude of some people.

The style for New York salsa means dancing clean, spinning with control, and dancing in a slot. This concept isn't understood anywhere in the world as it is practiced here in New York. Looking cool is more important than looking flashy. No one does dips or trips, and rueda is very rare. The dance community in New York frowns upon this. I think this is a weakness, as people get stuck here in what they are used to. If you do a turn sequence that a woman is unfamiliar with, she'll think you suck, and give you, or her friend next you, a look of disapproval. You also see people give very reserved expressions on their face. I think that's a reflection of New York culture. We take the subway with a thousand people, and never look anyone in the eye, or say hello to anyone you know.

Being a Salsero in New York means being devoted to shines or footwork. The footwork here is phenomenal because half of every salsa class is devoted to shines. While I say this is good, I think our community would grow if there was a focus on movement for the entire body. There is minimalist philosophy for a lot of dancers here. Many New Yorkers aren't going to do anything different or experimental in their dance, because they are so focused on dancing clean. This happens because the culture in New York is so tough and competitive, dancers don't want to be a target for criticism by making a mistake or looking different. The results of this is very little body movement and expression, and a lot of familiar spins and turns. One criticism of New York dancing is that it all looks the same. Well, if it all looks great, that's not too bad, is it?

[ http://www.thesalsaguide.com/articles/article006.html ]
 
youngsta said:
brujo said:
The slotted positioning of NY/LA style, all the extraneous hand motions and styling, and the multiple spins all seem too artificial to me. Sure, it looks good if you want to show off, but with the more traditional styles you get to feel more. Am I wrong?
This has nothing to do with those particular styles and EVERYTHING to do with the dancers. I don't believe you feel more dancing casino/cuban/colombian style.

I totally agree with you youngsta. :)
 
So Brujo just because someone wrote that in an article you believe it's true for everyone that dances those styles? I find there are just as many people that don't have that attitude. I've also found dancers with that attitude who dance casino style...it's all about the personality of the dancers imho.
 
I know of the person who wrote the article, I've seen him dance too many times. I somewhat agree to some of the comments on the lack of "inside the lines of NY City style" but not the reasons for it. He has forgoten to mention that if most of us don't know something exists we will never learn it, do it, and even less teach it. Not to mention that when the floor is jammed packed, it is easier to dance not moving around from your slot spot. That is the case in NY City, if you think you will rueda, circle, or diagonaly move around the floor you will be watching most the night. While it can be done when the floor isn't jammed packed, it isn't very nice of you to move a girl in circles increasing the chances to move into someones space when the floor is crowded.

And nope, a style isn't a limitation of how much someone feels salsa. My mom can't dance, and if you see her listening to salsa she looks like she is in a trance. She can't even merengue.
 
youngsta said:
So Brujo just because someone wrote that in an article you believe it's true for everyone that dances those styles? I find there are just as many people that don't have that attitude. I've also found dancers with that attitude who dance casino style...it's all about the personality of the dancers imho.

No. I'm listing the viewpoint from someone who obviously knows the scene in new york to provide points to this discussion. I find that sometimes the instructors have the best grasp on the deficiencies on their own scenes.

Of course the dance depends on the dancers, but my question concerns the fundamental elements of the dance and the music. Mambo is a big city dance with big city attitudes. Of course, if you are in New York, there is pretty much no way around it.

From the Toronto point of view, we have an extremely large latin community. The salsa scene here has been fed largely by native Colombians and Venezuelans who bring their own style of salsa. LA style has slowly been coming into the scene in maybe the last five years. Ask all the old school instructors about this new acrobatic style, and the complaints are always the same : The music is too fast, the movements too artificial and the dance is more about flash than feeling.

In watching a lot of the dancers in our scene, there seems to be few times when the people come together and just dance the basics feeling the music, as they are always trying to catch the next double spin.

So far, you haven't provided one benefit of New York style over colombian style. I'll give you a couple from Casino + Colombian style that I have seen:

-> Easier to follow. The way turns are lead in the traditional style are more momentum based, while the NY turns, for the sake of being controlled and allow multiple spins, rely heavily on the follower. The way the turns are taught, you cannot grab a girl from the street and make her turn without her looking confused from the lead alone. The slotted style is also not immediately noticeable.

-> More body movement in Colombian style. The man and the woman both move their entire bodies while dancing, LA style is a lot stiffer, in fact, I know instructors who discourage moving the body to have a better lead.
 
I have to agree with those who say Cuban, Casino style salsa is less "posed" than LA or NY styles. The LA style in my humble opinion, is great for TV and movies... very glitzy with lots of dips and flips that have absolutely ZERO to do with salsa. You may be interested in reading an article I wrote about what IS Cuban Casino style salsa. You can find it here: http://www.salsapower.com/editorials/casino.htm

A seguir bailando, pues la salsa es la fuente de la juventud eterna!

Jacira
 
A warm welcome to the forums Jacira!! We are very happy to have another knowledgable person participate in our discussions! :D I have enjoyed browsing your site, learning history from the CD reviews, etc.
 
Sagitta said:
A warm welcome to the forums Jacira!! We are very happy to have another knowledgable person participate in our discussions! :D I have enjoyed browsing your site, learning history from the CD reviews, etc.

Thank you! I wish I had more time to participate in forums, but with over 500 pages to keep updated, not to mention private salsa classes, other client's web sites (I do web design), the occasional international congress and my son's activities... that is pretty difficult! Feel free however, to ask anything about Cuban style and I will try and get you the answer if I don't know it myself!

Deseandoles mucha salsa a todos en el nuevo a~no!
Jacira
 
brujo said:
So far, you haven't provided one benefit of New York style over colombian style.
And I never planned to. If you love dancing that style more power to you! No need to try and take shots at another style because of your distaste for it. There are plenty of variations to satisfy all of us.
 
youngsta said:
brujo said:
So far, you haven't provided one benefit of New York style over colombian style.
And I never planned to. If you love dancing that style more power to you! No need to try and take shots at another style because of your distaste for it. There are plenty of variations to satisfy all of us.

There is a difference between taking shots and trying to understand why people prefer one style over the other. I usually have fun dancing with LA / NY style dancers, but I've never developed the love for the style for the reasons I mentioned. Come on, NY dancers, why? why? why? This is a discussion board, for crying out loud!
 
Brujo, why do some prefer NY City style? Have you been to NY City? Why do you think the article describes the average NY City dancer going any where in the world and being one of the best upon arrival? Just like it takes years of practice to do ballroom, is the same with Mambo style dance. Why do some like driving a 100 miles an hour? The same reason some drive the same vehicle at 50 Mph. Preference.

Mambo isn’t something the average Joe off the street can do. It is something generated by desire, willingness to do a dance above what the norm is, something that compiles Cuban style, Colombian style, Rican style, hustle, jazz, tap, you get the point. That some people don’t do it is a completely different thing. But that it is called for in the music, as well as the dance, indeed.

Mambo style calls for just about every dance, minus the aerial shows, neither Colombian, nor Cuban style call for such dances to be incorporated into them. Mambo style does. Hence, why you need to be able to spin, on time, without wobbling around, move feet around, move your body around, to master the dance. The lady has to be strong solo dancer because, Mambo mastery isn’t the Jail house of 2 dancers, where the male says you go here and shut up, I’m the leader and I’m going to take you there! Rather the game played when dancing solo. The mastery of dancing mambo must be greater than that of Cuban style as well as Colombian for someone to dance it well. Hence, why a person who doesn’t know a lick about mambo dancing can’t do it. Because if you can’t drive a car what makes you think you can fly a jet? Then have the right to complain because you can’t fly a Jet, hence, it isn’t as good as car.

What is NY City style? It is only the stepping of 1,2,3 5,6,7, but breaking on 2, nothing else. The preference of the dance is to dance on the slot, however, incorporation of circular, angular, etc, go just as well with the dance. If the person lacks the body movement you speak of, it has more to do with personal ability than hindrance of style. Ala Rumba movements, something salsa calls for, but is absent in Colombian style, however, it is called for and danced in NY City style. Again, that people don’t do it is different than the style no having it.

The fundamentals of NY City style? You can’t move the body as much while stepping over the 4 on way to the 5 or, 8 on way to the 1. That is all that pretty much hinders the amount of body movement. That New Yorkers have attitudes? Yes. Does it come out when they dance? Yes. So, does everyone else’s attitude. The movements are artificial only to those that can’t do them, and because of those that do them are more worried about the move than the dance, hence failing to feel the dance. Again brujo, it isn’t a limit of the dance but the limit of people that dance it. Remember that dancing well and looking like you enjoy it because of a smile isn’t feeling the dance.

I don’t like momentum based moves. Why? They stress too much strength-control over the partner. Salsa isn’t about momentum, nor egotistical control. It is about a sharing of power and grace, which should display the women more, because the word “woman” alone means sensuality. How much sensuality is there on momentum? None. It limits itself in that is the way you are coming and where you must. Instead of masterfully guiding the lady to a completely unexpected spot, yet ever so smoothly. The side and back stepping with one leg are of an on1 dance form(the cumbia basic step has its origin on1 dancing where the body calls for side to side motion, hence allowing a circular dance), I dance on2, so I enjoy dancing back and forth and on the slot. On2 calls for a back and forth motion, less arm sway across the body. The body is going back and forth, why fight it and swing the arms across the body side to side. See, the incorporation of on1 to NY City style on2.

Easier to follow? Sure, it isn’t advanced; it requires no prior knowledge of any beat, form or technique. Remember, if the average Joe off the street isn’t ready to fly a Jet, then don’t blame the Jet for being complicate. It just is, the problem is that it takes time to learn to fly it. I don’t want to grab someone form the street and make them dance. I want to dance with someone. I don’t care to know that I can make someone dance and follow me. I already know I can. I want to be able to share something with someone. Not my egotistical gain of how well I manage to move around a girl from the street that never danced before. Why? Because leading someone isn’t dancing!

There are hindrances to every style. Personal preference, guided by geographical embedded ideas acting as the driving force for why the style I dance is better. Had you been born in NY City, you would be asking why isn’t everyone dancing NY City style, and why it is better. Nothing to do with the style, but how the self needs to acknowledge that it is doing something how it needs to be done and the why, which it has forgotten that it can be applied to the complete opposite of what it is doing.

Remeber, the music is complicated, so why must the dance not be? If musicians need to be educated and learn percussion to play salsa. Then the dancers better go through equal dance education to give thanks to those people who are making us shake our souls. The more we know, the closer we can get to dancing a genre that incorportes just about every other genre, even cumbia. Now, NY City style calls for all of that, that people don't do it, is something different.
 
Jacira said:
I have to agree with those who say Cuban, Casino style salsa is less "posed" than LA or NY styles. The LA style in my humble opinion, is great for TV and movies... very glitzy with lots of dips and flips that have absolutely ZERO to do with salsa. You may be interested in reading an article I wrote about what IS Cuban Casino style salsa. You can find it here: http://www.salsapower.com/editorials/casino.htm

A seguir bailando, pues la salsa es la fuente de la juventud eterna!

Jacira

Welcome to the forums! Lovely to have another salsera aboard. :D
 

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