Why some women are not asked to dance

Picking this up from a previous thread - Ocho Techniques: http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=17629

I think it deserves it's own topic.
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My personal observations on why some men do not ask some women to dance:

*Disclaimer: These are my observations and my opinions alone

1. Intimidation:
   1. Some women are not asked to dance because the men who are in the milongas are totally intimidated by how good you look, and how good you move
2. Wasn't impressed:
   1. Opposite of number one (see above). They saw you dance before and were not impressed by how you moved or looked
3. Nobody knows you:
   1. People normaly go with the familiar. If you're a stranger, it will probably harder for someone to drum up courage to ask you
   2. Coupled with the other factors, things could get worse
4. The Cliques:
   1. Some people in cliques will only dance within that group
   2. If you happened to be in a milonga that was pervaded, then you'd probably end up not being asked
   3. I do have a clique of my own. But, a major part of our charter is to dance with anyone at any level. We do this to hone our lead and follow skills to make any dance something beautiful. So, if your in Seattle, let me know :wink:
5. The way you look:
   1. Be as beautiful as you can be, and match the crowds "Persona"
      1. Dress "Hip," or "Casual" if you're in a milonga frequeted by the Nuevo
      2. Dress "Elegant" if you're in a milonga frequented by the Vieja
6. Body Language:
   1. Sometimes, the way one projects oneself on a chair discourages men from approaching you
   2. Try this link: look at "How to sit..." http://tinatangos.wordpress.com/tag/...e-at-milongas/
7. Women sit together (Strength in numbers)
   1. Some men would not ask you to dance because all the women are sitting in a big bunch
   2. They don't want to offend the others by homing in on you to dance. So, to save the others' feelings, they won't ask you, until you break away (i.e. get a drink, get a snack, come back from the lady's room, etc.)

I'm going to move this off into a new string!

My intent is to let people know what others may be thinking so you can leverage that.
WHY? Because, Ampster wants all Tangueros & Tangueras to DANCE!

Age
If a woman is from a different age bracket and is not known as a good dancer.

Ampster- I like your style!

"I do have a clique of my own. But, a major part of our charter is to dance with anyone at any level. We do this to hone our lead and follow skills to make any dance something beautiful. "

The people I tend to hang out with tend to be similar to this. I try to dance with people I like whether i have just met them, or known them for awhile. They don't have to be fabulous dancers and it helps me develop my following skills to dance with a variety of people.

I think all of Ampster's comments seem to apply to most places. I haven't seen an exception yet, even in my own town. I didn't get asked much when I first started but as I took classes and got to know people, I got asked more often and now most times, I rarely sit down much. But I see the same thing being applied when I am out dancing to others who are new. I've always found that a little disheartening.

Ampster - that was an interesting blog to read. I'd never heard of the word 'cabaceo' until now, but it seems like a common enough idea among tango dancers. What's so interesting to me about this is that I've been practising the cabaceo (not knowing that it is an established tradition among some, or that it even had a word to describe it ) in recent times on the salsa dance floor. Not 100% of the time, but more like 25% of the time - which is waaay more than the norm for us salseros

Ampster said:

The way you look:

1. 1. Be as beautiful as you can be, and match the crowds "Persona"
      1. Dress "Hip," or "Casual" if you're in a milonga frequeted by the Nuevo
      2. Dress "Elegant" if you're in a milonga frequented by the Vieja

Click to expand...

As much as I hate it, I've found this to be very true, IME.

I can go to the same place, with the same crowd of dancers, and if I dress sexy then guys will take a chance with me who otherwise don't. Makes me want to scream.

I recently experienced this at the small place I usually go. There are two guys who I've been seeing there for over a year. They've never asked me...until I started dressing up. Ticks me off beyond belief. If I'm good enough for you to ask me to dance when I'm wearing a short dress, I'm good enough when I'm wearing jeans. End of story. The rest is just so much b.s. (True b.s., but b.s. nonetheless.)

I turned one guy down, for this reason. (Not that I told him that, but it was the reason why.) The other guy I accepted only b/c I was curious about him as a dancer. IMO, he wasn't that good.

Jeebus I hate the way things are sometimes. If I wanted that kind of superficial, no-relation-to-actual-quality-of-dancing evaluation I'd enter the competitive ballroom world. (Not that the competitive ballroom world is all superficial, but an awful lot seems to be.)

And another thing!!!

Now,having read the blog, I'm even more annoyed.

For the love of god, now I'm supposed to be thinking about the 8 billion ways to cross my legs? What a load of crap. Not to mention, what a bunch of bloody uncomfortable ways to sit. Forget that. I deal with the discomfort of wearing heels, that's bloody well enough. Sit with my legs all twisted about like that...I'm flexible, but I'm not gumby...or 8 years old...phooey.

I go out to dance. To have fun and enjoy myself. MY-SELF. As in, ME. [Foxtrot] all if I'm gonna go and put on airs and be something I'm not and put cramps in my legs and torque my knees just because it's more freakin' "ladylike." (THIS is why I HATE the term "lady," or "ladylike." While I'm at it, why don't I just put on an apron and get dinner on the table by 6pm so I can greet my hubby at the door with a martini? With a rugrat on my hip, of course.)

Kee-rist almighty. I'll sit how I'm comfortable, dangit. And if that means I don't get asked do dance as much, well so be it. If some guy can't get past his b.s., from god-know-what-outdated-era version of "ladylike" to see past the various ways of crossing my legs as an indication of the kind of person and dancer I am, well screw that.

And I hate the idea of the cabaceo. Have the *ahem* to come up and ask me to dance.

hmmm....sometimes dressing differently makes someone see you differently...I have some friends who usually are dressed down. Then now and then I see them dressed up and I go "woah". I notice that my eyes wander to them where normally they usually wouldn't do so as often. And...I admit to asking them more often...not necessarily because they are dressed sexy, but their different dress attracts my attention and I'm more likely to ask people who attract my attention. I guess I'm superficial.... ;-)

When I dress up I get a lot of attention. I mean a lot...and I'm a guy. People feel good dancing with someone who is dressed well vs someone dressed in gym shorts/t-shirt/sandals. I guess there are many ladies who are superficicial. ;-)


To people of equal ability, and one dressed really well...and one nondescript. Who will attract your attention? Who will get the dances when there is a surplus of dancers....?

I'm not disputing the fact of human nature. I understand that it exists, and I understand why. I don't expect that it will ever, ever change within the course of human existance. I'm well aware of it, and will, sometimes, play the game. (See: reference to dressing up. Other times I'm in more of a f-it kind of mood, and I'll wear what I like and what I feel good in.)

I just don't have to like it.

All I'm saying is that I despise the game. If people want to dance with a trophy girl (or guy), fine. If people are actually looking to dance with the best dancers (not that I'm saying I'm one of the "best dancers"...not by a long shot), fine. But if wanting to dance with a good dancer is the case, then what they wear shouldn't matter. Either is fine.

I just hate it.

*WHERE YOU SIT AND CROWD CIRCULATION*

I think another reason some women are not asked to dance is because they sit timidly in a corner. As the milonga wears on, their sweet reluctance mutates into silent brooding.

So what you have here is a woman who positioned herself in a not-so-accessible way, who then as a result of not being 'picked up' begins sulking, which drops to EL ZIPPO any chances of being asked to dance.

I know one woman who does this ALL the time. She seems to expect a man to cross the room, muscle his way through dancers, move chairs out of the way and then inch his way around a table to ask her hand for a dance. Then she becomes sour and sullen and very unpleasant to be around for the rest of the evening because nobody has asked her to dance. It's very annoying.

I understand a woman being shy in that she is not used to asking a stranger for a dance. What I have no tollerance for is a woman who hides in a corner and refuses to circulate, then whines about being ignored. At least CIRCULATE, or sit close to the floor where somebody can end a dance and then see you.

Me said:

*WHERE YOU SIT AND CROWD CIRCULATION*
<snippet> So what you have here is a woman who positioned herself in a not-so-accessible way, who then as a result of not being 'picked up' begins sulking, which drops to EL ZIPPO any chances of being asked to dance....

Click to expand...

You are absolutely right, Me! I know a person who was like this. She finally figured out that men will not climb a barricade to dance with her. She decided to hang out and around the water fountain. So, at the end of the tanda, people gravited towards there. She now only retreats behind her barricade when she wants to rest.

I know it is superficial, but i admit i am more likely to ask people who are dressed up, too. I mean, being dressed up is at least some indication that the person takes the dance seriously. And i haven't yet figured out any other way of guessing how enjoyable a dance with somebody i have never danced with before could be. I don't usually watch people dance - i look for the great dancers in the hope that watching them enough will somehow transfer some of their skill, and even the people i have seen dancing sometimes feel very different from what they look like. So if i have 15 seconds during a cortina to figure out whom to ask - and in these 15 seconds i have to check if any of the followers i really want to dance with are not dancing, i have to figure out what the next tanda is probably going to sound like in case one of the people i like doing e.g. vals with is not dancing, i have to nod and acknowledge other leaders, i have to chat with the follower i just danced with - well, if durign this i have to decide between 5 followers i have never danced before, sitting in different corners of the room, while some other leaders are moving to ask them to dance, i am basically forced to use the simpelest heurisitc possible. I mean, i notice truly extraordinary dancers, and i notice beginners, and i notice if somebody is sitting out for a few tandas in a row, and i will ask them for a dance. But followers roughly on my level don't really catch my eye that way, so if i have to pick somebody on the fly i will look for somebody who "looks like they want to dance" - and this can be in the posture, or the smile, or the outfit. It is shallow, and superficial, and while i feel a little bit defensive about it - i don't like viewing myself as shallow - it is really difficult to make this decision on a more informed basis.

Are there any followers here that also lead? What do you think? You would be among the few who truly have experienced this from both sides (i am trying to learn how to follow, but at milongas i tend to only lead) - how do you decide between the many followers you could ask for a dance?

Gssh

P.S. I like the idea of the cabezo - it is not done here, but i find that with friends everybody drops into something cabezo-like anway - we catch each others eye, nod, and meet on the dancefloor.

P.P.S. I am a bit torn over the blog - it is a bit over the top, but i wonder how much of this i react to unconsciously - e.g. i know that i avoid asking women who are chatting with their friends (i feel it is intrusive to assume that me wanting to dance is more important than their conversation), i try to see if she has taken off her shoes / for women who also lead i tend to assume that they are there as leaders if they have been leading up to then/wear dance sneakers, if somebody seems to be just relaxing and watching the dancefloor i also don't want to interrupt them.

Basically i have learned that while almost everybody will dance when asked, asking somebody who is not in the mood for a dance is a recipie for a unpleasant experience. And so i try to guess who is in the mood for a dance.
Thats also confusing for me when it comes to these recurring debates about the weak male ego and that men get insulted and won't ask followers to dance with them anymore when they are too critical. I do that. And it really has very little to do with being insulted - it is because i am trying to have fun, and part of the fun for me is to know that i created a pleasant experience for the follower, and if my technique is not up to her expectations i will work on it and ask her again when i feel that i can create a nice dance for her. I have been thinking about this a lot, because i have this thing going on with a very good dancer - she does not enjoy dancign with me - i can feel it in the dance, she tells me, she activly fights what i try to do - so i don't dance with her - why should i inflict a bad experience on her when she could dance with somebody she likes, and i could do the same? Well, i overheard her talking with somebody and she mentioned that i was "punishing" her for critizising me. Ok, so i thought that maybe she would like to dance with me - so i asked her again, and exactly the same thing happend. I really don't understand this - if somebody does not like my style, and my lead, and finds my technique jarring - why should we dance together? I am happy to not dance with people i like when it will make a better evening for both of us. I mean, i am happier not dancing and watching the milonga than having a bad dance. Why would somebody who does not like dancing with me feel slighted when i don't dance with her?

Me said:

*WHERE YOU SIT AND CROWD CIRCULATION*

I think another reason some women are not asked to dance is because they sit timidly in a corner. As the milonga wears on, their sweet reluctance mutates into silent brooding.

So what you have here is a woman who positioned herself in a not-so-accessible way, who then as a result of not being 'picked up' begins sulking, which drops to EL ZIPPO any chances of being asked to dance.

I know one woman who does this ALL the time. She seems to expect a man to cross the room, muscle his way through dancers, move chairs out of the way and then inch his way around a table to ask her hand for a dance. Then she becomes sour and sullen and very unpleasant to be around for the rest of the evening because nobody has asked her to dance. It's very annoying.

I understand a woman being shy in that she is not used to asking a stranger for a dance. What I have no tollerance for is a woman who hides in a corner and refuses to circulate, then whines about being ignored. At least CIRCULATE, or sit close to the floor where somebody can end a dance and then see you.

Click to expand...

well I agree with this.. there is a subliminal message if you place yourself in a difficult message.

With me I work my way left to right round the room, then I pick the ladies who look like nice dancers, sometimes I look for the gooseberries.

as to the cabezo I don't like the idea of it. Some women are always talking and wouldn't notice if a truck was about to run them over so making eye contact is nigh imposible. other times the lighting is just too dim.

As to how to sit she looked terribly fidgety:wink:

Gssh, ever hear of or see the Muhammad Ali Rope a Dope tactic? Maybe this woman enjoys making you feel bad. Maybe you remember how in the Peanuts comic strip, Lucy would always pull the ball away from Charlie Brown at the last second, and he would fall on his back. Every year, she would assure him that she wouldn't do it, this time. And every year...
On the other hand, maybe her comments are sincerely meant to help you. Maybe she finds you attractive in some way, wants to enjoy dancing with you, and thinks she is helping you to be a better dancer.
Whatever it is, it takes two to play the game.
If it doesn't feel good when you do that, don't do it.

I also have to add that, in regards to superficiality, we almost have to make decisions on how we act based on what we see. Everyone has a choice about how they present themselves to others, both visually and with verbal clues, such as choice of words and tone of voice.
We don't have the ability to read minds. (and thank goodness for that!)

Just as I have a mouth and feet and go over and ask the ladies they should ask me. I feel if someone wants to dance with me they can ask and if I want to dance with them I'll ask.

The above 2 sentences summarizes my opinion on the matter, really.

As a 20 something with long blonde hair (who still gets id'd for smokes) I find it really frustrating, older men will descend on me and almost aggressively invite me to dance. It's very public so it's hard to say no without embarrassment on both sides. I don't want to come over as a bitch. The worst thing is that it is very hard to improve my dancing because people don't ask you 'cos you're good, they ask you because they want to dance with the teenager.
I prefer the cabaceo because it lets me off the hook, and visiting teachers will notice you making eyes at'em when everyone else is trying to work out how to go over.