Ballroom and the economy
- Thread starter pygmalion
- Start date
Laura
Well-Known Member
I really like the model that my teacher used. He was an independent. It worked like this:
- I filled out all the forms and paid the basic entry fees and ticket fees directly to the organizer
- My teacher presented me with an invoice (usually written on a sticky note) that looked something like
number of dances @ his per-dance fee = $ amount that I owed him for dancing
plus
(for out of town comps) my share of his travel expenses (evenly divided amongst all attending students)
It worked great. The organizer always got the entries done right and on time. I always knew how much money I was paying him for his services and expenses at the comp. Even when he doubled his per-dance fee I still felt like I was getting my money's worth. It's a very basic, simple, honest model.
- I filled out all the forms and paid the basic entry fees and ticket fees directly to the organizer
- My teacher presented me with an invoice (usually written on a sticky note) that looked something like
number of dances @ his per-dance fee = $ amount that I owed him for dancing
plus
(for out of town comps) my share of his travel expenses (evenly divided amongst all attending students)
It worked great. The organizer always got the entries done right and on time. I always knew how much money I was paying him for his services and expenses at the comp. Even when he doubled his per-dance fee I still felt like I was getting my money's worth. It's a very basic, simple, honest model.
spatten
Member
pygmailion said:
I think you are right here. And part of what we who know better are doing on this board is protecting future dancers - as you have alluded to several times.
After you have been exposed to such a simple model as what Laura explains - anything else seems underhanded by comparison.
Laura
Well-Known Member
pygmalion said:
Exactly. I haven't heard stories like these in several years, but when the competitive community first started showing up on the web, I'd hear horror stories of people being asked to pay $10,000 to dance in a competition that I myself only paid about $1500 for when all was said and done. When the price differential is an order of magnitude of difference, you have to wonder.
To get back to the restaurant metaphor (even though I think it's a bad analogy), I know that eating at Chevvy's is about 10 times the price of eating at McDonald's. But I also know that for that order of magnitude I'm also getting wait service, margaritas, a salad, and a cooked-to-order meal. That makes sense. But for two people to go to the same dance competition and one pay nearly an order of magnitude more for the same thing, then you have to wonder....
To the industry's credit, I've heard very very few of these kinds of stories in the past year or two. I think discussion boards like this have gone some ways to waking people up to the older/slimier practicies.
DancingMommy
Active Member
Here's my take on competition pricing...
You have a hypothetical studio and it has 5 employees, all of whom are teachers with students. They all take turns running the desk, answering phones, etc.
You have this upcoming MAJOR competition (like USBC, say) and ALL the teachers are going with students. Maybe 2 teachers are entering pro events together. Here's where it get TRICKY.
Because all the staff will be out for the time of the comp - maybe not the WHOLE time - the studio needs to recoup the amount of money IT would have lost for the days it was closed. If you have a comp that runs Tues- Sunday like USBC, that can be a HUGE amount.
Then you have the cost to transport everyone to the event - especially if it is a studio sponsored event - and house them and feed them. Obviously you can't expect the staff to pay this since if they were home, they would have their own bed and groceries and cars/transportation.
Then you have the actual cost of entries/tickets into the ballroom/etc that have to be prepaid before you get there (or at least a minimum deposit). Then you have to pay the teachers for their time that they are there since they ARE working the entire time they aren't eating or sleeping. They are basically "on call" for the entire trip.
When you think about this, then it becomes plain that you get a LOT more from your instructor during the time you are at a comp than you do in your one hour lesson. Know what I mean?
So here's the magic formula..... I used to have it on a spreadsheet that automatically parsed the amounts... let me see if I can find it, lol! Tee hee - I found it, lol!
What I had devised was a method that was completely fair to everyone involved.
Teacher A has X number of standing appointments that normally occur during the time that they would be going to the competition. They have to be paid for the time they would have been teaching. They also get a per diem for meals not accounted for by being on a package. Travel arrangements/hotel must be covered.
Teacher A has Y number of students going to competition for Z number of person days. A person day is how many days total there would be if they ran consecutively rather than concurrently.
Student N will be attending for 3 days
Student M will be attending for 5 days
Student L will be attending for 2 days
---------------------------------------------
This leaves a total of 12 person days
X = total expenditures / Z days (Z = 12 in this case)
So, student N is 3X, M is 5X and L is 2X + their own entry fees/tickets/etc.
In this example, Teacher A has 8 hours of regular appointments that they needed to reschedule. They get paid $20/hour - a total of $160.
They will be on a package to cover meals so there will be no hotel or per diem, but the package for the entire 5 days is $300.
Total expenses = $460
X = $460 / 12 or $39
So, student N is $117, M is $195 and L is $78 + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever. This is the payment to their teacher for *their* time. then you have the LOI supplement (see below).
If however, the *studio* has no income over the entire time of the competition, then the entire hours of operation that the studio loses would be split amongst ALL attending students.
SO, Studio B is losing 35 total hours of *booked* lessons but has 15 students going.
35 hours * $ per hour = Loss of income
LOI / # of students = student LOI supplement
For example, 35 * $50 = $1750
$1750 / 15 = $117 LOI supplement.
The total expenses for the students would break down this way:
N is $117 + 117 (234) + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever
M is $195 + 117 (312 + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever
L is $78 + 117 (195) + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever
It gets complicated, but basically the upshot of it is that no one pays more than their fair share.
You have a hypothetical studio and it has 5 employees, all of whom are teachers with students. They all take turns running the desk, answering phones, etc.
You have this upcoming MAJOR competition (like USBC, say) and ALL the teachers are going with students. Maybe 2 teachers are entering pro events together. Here's where it get TRICKY.
Because all the staff will be out for the time of the comp - maybe not the WHOLE time - the studio needs to recoup the amount of money IT would have lost for the days it was closed. If you have a comp that runs Tues- Sunday like USBC, that can be a HUGE amount.
Then you have the cost to transport everyone to the event - especially if it is a studio sponsored event - and house them and feed them. Obviously you can't expect the staff to pay this since if they were home, they would have their own bed and groceries and cars/transportation.
Then you have the actual cost of entries/tickets into the ballroom/etc that have to be prepaid before you get there (or at least a minimum deposit). Then you have to pay the teachers for their time that they are there since they ARE working the entire time they aren't eating or sleeping. They are basically "on call" for the entire trip.
When you think about this, then it becomes plain that you get a LOT more from your instructor during the time you are at a comp than you do in your one hour lesson. Know what I mean?
So here's the magic formula..... I used to have it on a spreadsheet that automatically parsed the amounts... let me see if I can find it, lol! Tee hee - I found it, lol!
What I had devised was a method that was completely fair to everyone involved.
Teacher A has X number of standing appointments that normally occur during the time that they would be going to the competition. They have to be paid for the time they would have been teaching. They also get a per diem for meals not accounted for by being on a package. Travel arrangements/hotel must be covered.
Teacher A has Y number of students going to competition for Z number of person days. A person day is how many days total there would be if they ran consecutively rather than concurrently.
Student N will be attending for 3 days
Student M will be attending for 5 days
Student L will be attending for 2 days
---------------------------------------------
This leaves a total of 12 person days
X = total expenditures / Z days (Z = 12 in this case)
So, student N is 3X, M is 5X and L is 2X + their own entry fees/tickets/etc.
In this example, Teacher A has 8 hours of regular appointments that they needed to reschedule. They get paid $20/hour - a total of $160.
They will be on a package to cover meals so there will be no hotel or per diem, but the package for the entire 5 days is $300.
Total expenses = $460
X = $460 / 12 or $39
So, student N is $117, M is $195 and L is $78 + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever. This is the payment to their teacher for *their* time. then you have the LOI supplement (see below).
If however, the *studio* has no income over the entire time of the competition, then the entire hours of operation that the studio loses would be split amongst ALL attending students.
SO, Studio B is losing 35 total hours of *booked* lessons but has 15 students going.
35 hours * $ per hour = Loss of income
LOI / # of students = student LOI supplement
For example, 35 * $50 = $1750
$1750 / 15 = $117 LOI supplement.
The total expenses for the students would break down this way:
N is $117 + 117 (234) + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever
M is $195 + 117 (312 + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever
L is $78 + 117 (195) + their own entry fees/tickets/package/whatever
It gets complicated, but basically the upshot of it is that no one pays more than their fair share.
Laura
Well-Known Member
That's the key: everyone paying their fair share. No one objects to that. It's just that some of the horror stories I used to hear included each student being billed for her teacher's ENTIRE travel expenses and missed lesson time, thus a good deal of "double-dipping" (or more than that!) was going on.
The person-days division makes sense...with my old Pro/Am teacher we just divided it all up equally by the number of students attending rather than the number of person-days. I think either way is fair for different reasons.
The person-days division makes sense...with my old Pro/Am teacher we just divided it all up equally by the number of students attending rather than the number of person-days. I think either way is fair for different reasons.
DancingMommy
Active Member
Exactly. This was something we discussed when i was working in a studio in Atlanta. The staff at our studio was pretty disgusted with the way things had been done by the previous managerial staff and so we decided to shake things up a bit. Boy was there a lot of drama that summer, lo!
spatten
Member
Nice post DancingMommy. Let me make one quick comment -
I have heard of some Pro that charge a pro fee for going to a comp (either per heat or total). And then they tell you they are going to charge for missed income on top of that. That doesn't fly with me.
If I am charging time to a client, I have an hourly rate- lets say 150$/hr. I don't charge them for lost income during that time (nobody does) - I have to schedule my time so that I meet all my clients needs.
Just a pet peeve of mine.
I have heard of some Pro that charge a pro fee for going to a comp (either per heat or total). And then they tell you they are going to charge for missed income on top of that. That doesn't fly with me.
If I am charging time to a client, I have an hourly rate- lets say 150$/hr. I don't charge them for lost income during that time (nobody does) - I have to schedule my time so that I meet all my clients needs.
Just a pet peeve of mine.
DancingMommy
Active Member
Well, it depends on how high the per dance/pro fee amount is. If they are only charging you $20 per dance, then they are NOT making up their lost income. And when you factor in the cost of costumes, etc that they must provide for themselves AND the oftimes cruddy wages they get paid anyways, they got to make a living SOMEHOW. Ask me how I know this......
DancingMommy
Active Member
Don't get your hopes up, lol!
