Nothing is off topic for me Larinda! I actually find ballroom dance history quite interesting and I thank you for you input. I also thank you that I now know how to quote!
Ballroom's Place in Society
- Thread starter pygmalion
- Start date
Nothing is off topic for me Larinda! I actually find ballroom dance history quite interesting and I thank you for you input. I also thank you that I now know how to quote!
NonieS
Well-Known Member
GGinrhinestones
Well-Known Member
Actually, I'm not so sure it is entirely off topic. How ballroom is perceived in society has a lot to do with whether or not people will participate in it. Ballroom (leaving out latin for the moment) IS a product of upper and middle class European society - to a large extent, even including Tango. Waltz and VW have their roots in social dancing of the 19th century. Foxtrot was a product of early 20th century "animal dances" that became all the rage in clubs frequented by the middle class. Tango...well, the tango we dance in ballroom today has *roots* in Argentina, but really is a product of France. It's about as Argentinian as Cha Cha is Cuban. Over time, we've done even more to highlight the traditional link to the traditional upper class ballroom - long dresses dripping in pseudo-diamonds, updos, tail suits, heavy jewelry...argue the practical reasons for all these things all you like, ballroom is still a "social grace" of people who care about presenting themselves as "socially graceful" to the outside world.
Latin and rhythm, on the other hand, are "hotter", "sexier", "wilder"...women wear skimpy costumes, men wear tight pants...the perception is that latin dancers are exciting, flashy, beautiful, sexy...and ridiculously tan, and fit, and athletic. Swing has roots in the wild youth culture of the 1930s and 1940s (ECS being a simplified version for "average" people of what was being danced in the clubs at the time by the young and crazy kids).
Has it changed? Not really, I think. DWTS has exposed more people to dance, but they still see the same thing. When I tell people I dance rhythm or latin, their eyebrows raise and they ask about skimpy dresses and being sexy. When I tell them I dance ballroom, they ask about long dresses and formal parties. Singles ask about latin. Married couples ask about ballroom. The disappointing thing which I am constantly trying to explain to them is that they also all seem to think that dancing equals performing, and isn't worth trying if you aren't interested in dancing on a stage.
Latin and rhythm, on the other hand, are "hotter", "sexier", "wilder"...women wear skimpy costumes, men wear tight pants...the perception is that latin dancers are exciting, flashy, beautiful, sexy...and ridiculously tan, and fit, and athletic. Swing has roots in the wild youth culture of the 1930s and 1940s (ECS being a simplified version for "average" people of what was being danced in the clubs at the time by the young and crazy kids).
Has it changed? Not really, I think. DWTS has exposed more people to dance, but they still see the same thing. When I tell people I dance rhythm or latin, their eyebrows raise and they ask about skimpy dresses and being sexy. When I tell them I dance ballroom, they ask about long dresses and formal parties. Singles ask about latin. Married couples ask about ballroom. The disappointing thing which I am constantly trying to explain to them is that they also all seem to think that dancing equals performing, and isn't worth trying if you aren't interested in dancing on a stage.
The only place I have seen the ballroom style danced socially outside of a studio was at a USABDA social. People were practicing steps they were taught in the studio. It was a nice atmosphere. Primarily, though, ballroom dance is for competition and used in performance. Social dance, on the other hand, requires its practitioners to listen to the music and interpret it. Feeling the music is the master. That doesn't mean contorting your face into phoney expressions either. That is why people go to clubs and are always inventing new dances to the new types of music that come out. Dancing chachacha to rock music? Yeah, it is the same beat, but the feeling is so different. People at rock concerts bang their heads because rock is a little bit about venting some rage. I don't really want to take away from the effort ballroom dancers put into their choreographed performances and competitions because I know these people are sacrificing a lot for that. The performances do look really nice. It is just not very honest to say it is a social dance. Social dance is improvisational and the individual dancers are empowered - not a whole industry that prescribes proper dance moves. The ballroom industry usually co-opts popular social dances, changes them a little bit to make them more proper and provides basic steps to make them easier to learn for beginners, writes a syllabus to prescribe proper moves, and then calls them the same name. Most people don't even know what is happening until their pocket book is a lot lighter than the social dancer who didn't spend anything and can kick their butt on a real dance floor. Ballroom will always be behind the times and a caricature of social dancing. Nevertheless, the performances look nice and classy.
Steven123, I’m not sure how you define a “real dance floor.” In the last 8 weeks, I’ve danced at a competition with a really experienced, versatile dancer where we tried our best to use “pre-planned” figures but still had to improvise at times, mostly with a bit of success; I’ve been at a USA Dance where I’ve danced with a really experienced, versatile dancer with no “pre-planned” figures ,and with several inexperienced non-versatile dancers where there were no “pre-planned” figures; and I was at a wedding where I danced with people who moved while music was playing but had no experience at all with figures, pre-planned or not, and essentially I was dancing on my own, freestyle. Is one of those scenarios “real” dancing to you in a way that the others are not? To me, they all seemed pretty “real” at the time. (I will say that dancing with the really experienced versatile dancer without "pre-planned" figures at the USA Dance was probably the most satisfying to me. I will acknowledge that, even though we didn't have "pre-planned" choreography, we still used figures that were familiar to both of us.) But, why would one those scenarios be more "real" to you than the others? (And I’m not asking this in a snit – I really am trying to understand what people define as “real” dancing.)
opendoor
Forum Master
So the question is, why did the styling of the mentioned dances developed in different directions, why competitors that try to approach the styling of the wild living varieties are regularly punished by the judges? On the contrary DWTS brought some convergency because trainers increasingly borrow from the free living vocabulary. I would not have any objections if there was a flowing continuum between fox, charleston and 2step; BR and argentine tango; cha cha and cha cha chá; rumba and bolero-son; ECS and lindy hop.
mjnemeth
Member
GGinrhinestones said:
"....Ballroom (leaving out latin for the moment) IS a product of upper and middle class European society......
Which is true, I believe but was it danced by low to middle class people ever
in America?
While I currently don't have access to any WWII vets I will in a month or so . Perhaps someone else can verify with WWII Vets or others of that age group what was danced back then and by who.
"....Ballroom (leaving out latin for the moment) IS a product of upper and middle class European society......
Which is true, I believe but was it danced by low to middle class people ever
in America?
While I currently don't have access to any WWII vets I will in a month or so . Perhaps someone else can verify with WWII Vets or others of that age group what was danced back then and by who.
I thought that tango originated from the poorer areas of Buenos Aires and then spread to the immigrants that were in Argentina at the time, who then took the dance to France, where it became very popular.
It is interesting to see that salsa dancing is extremely popular across all ages, genders and ethnicities. I think that is partly due to it being seen as a dance "of the people", rather than a dance from European rich societies. As I discuss the origins of each dance style in ballroom ( which I am using to mean standard, smooth, rhythm and latin), my hope is that the origins of each of the dances will show that ballroom actually has roots in many different cultures and countries and perhaps will have broader appeal to all.
I don't know about any of the others, but Waltz certainly was. It might have been a "country" waltz, but it was danced by the common folk.
Peabody, has a much closer relationship with Q/Step."step"wise .
You "rang" Me Lord ?...
We were dancing more or less, the same dances as today . Old Time, in the UK ( sequence style ) was HUGE .Thats where,when,and how, I learned to hone my leading skills .
PD and Tango were treated like step children, and Rumba was Square.
The time signatures ,were commonly 2/4 for Tango and Q/Step.
Lindy had not reached the masses until the early/mid 4os, and, many public ballrooms, initially forbade it . "We " (B.R. types), liked it for its change of pace ( tho many of our coaches were against it ) .
There were also several " line " dances, done regularly in public ballrooms, the most common being the Palais Glide, named after where it was " born " .
opendoor
Forum Master
You are absolutely right. Charleston, Peabody, Foxtrot, Quickstep altogether simply are variants of Ragtime and of course Ragtime is true of american origin. But the BR brain forgot about that free living varieties and ancestors and only summons his own history which is codified with an english accent.
Wikipedia articles are only as good as the people who are willing to invest time in them.
Regarding Fox Trot -
Two sources credit African American dancers as the source of the Fox Trot: Vernon Castle himself, and then dance teacher Betty Lee. Castle saw the dance, which "had been danced by negroes, to his personal knowledge, for fifteen years, (at) a certain exclusive colored club". Hawkins, Christina M. (2002). A Compilation and Analysis of the Origins of the Foxtrot in White Mainstream America (Master of Arts thesis). Brigham Young University Department of Dance. p. 18.
Regarding Fox Trot -
Two sources credit African American dancers as the source of the Fox Trot: Vernon Castle himself, and then dance teacher Betty Lee. Castle saw the dance, which "had been danced by negroes, to his personal knowledge, for fifteen years, (at) a certain exclusive colored club". Hawkins, Christina M. (2002). A Compilation and Analysis of the Origins of the Foxtrot in White Mainstream America (Master of Arts thesis). Brigham Young University Department of Dance. p. 18.
During WWII there was a huge influx of people to fill jobs created in the "defense industry." Time magazine started an article that led with a woring class guy walking into an Arthur Murray studio and plucking down a bunch of cash an ddeclaring that he wanted to learn how to dance so he could meet classy women. (I've got the exact text somewhere!)
Joe Lanza (Black Sheep / Uncle Joe) wrote that returning servicemen could use the GI bill to take dance lessons, and that fueled a post war dance lesson boom. (Joe served in the Army Air Corps during the war.)
WWII vets? Ask them about Peabody, Slicker, and what they called any swing dance they learned.
Joe Lanza (Black Sheep / Uncle Joe) wrote that returning servicemen could use the GI bill to take dance lessons, and that fueled a post war dance lesson boom. (Joe served in the Army Air Corps during the war.)
WWII vets? Ask them about Peabody, Slicker, and what they called any swing dance they learned.