close or open embrace

[chrisjj]

yes- several, some of them my own close embrace teachers.

Ah, well no surprise they've taken classes if they claim to be teachers.

But the vast majority of close-embrace dancers in BsAs have not.

I've noticed that just about everyone saying they find learning to dance tango difficult are trying to learn in classes. It's like:

1) I am trying to learn Spanish in classes and finding it difficult.
2) Every Spanish speaker I know has had classes.

See, 1 is largely caused by 2, and 1 soon reinforces 2 in a vicious circle.

Millions have learned Spanish without difficulty, because they learned naturally from those that speak it without difficulty. Without classes.

I suggest anyone having difficulty learning tango dancing by classes should try learning it by dancing. If that means paying someone for a private one-to-one session, fine. Your first pick might be your class teacher - if he can't teach you even direct through dance, then you certainly learned something worthwhile.

 

[Gssh]

As a lead, I find that close embrace with a leaning partner is more difficult than with a partner who manages her own balance.

This is usually a symptom of a follower who doesn't actually know how to dance CE using CE technique. I am slowly becoming convinced that OE->CE transitions and CE->OE transitions in a dance are fiendishly difficult and should never, ever be done. What happens in general is that these transitions lead to CE danced with OE technique (i.e. the close embrace with a partner that manages her own axis), which leads to a (imo) quite limited vocabulary. CE requires of the follower a different use of the dissociation, a different technique in the walk, a different use of the hip and spine, a shift from using the pivot, axis, and momentum as the base of the dance to using cross, alignment with the leader and the ground path as the basis of the dance. Its like the early days of the UCF - knowing about the long and middle range does not help if somebody closes in. And almost nobody does the close game and the open game equally well. If a follower and leader are both equally skilled at both ranges transitions are a great way to show this off, but in most cases i see these transitions and notice that there is now a mismatch between their technique and their chosen range.

One of the nice things at the moment is that nuevo CE dancers like Jaimes Friedgen are becoming more visible - it has always been frustrating to me that so few people realized the dynamic and technical possibilities and range of the CE. I hope that nuevo CE does to milonguero the same as nuevo OE has done to salon .

Gssh

 

[Captain Jep]

Hmmm dodgy analogy. Most fluent speakers of a language

a) are constantly immersed in the relevant environment
b) have done lessons at school
c) dont have an ultra competitive learning environment to deal with (cant dance - wont dance)

And stumbling to fluency in Spanish doesnt require you to step constantly on your dance partner's toes

 

[chrisjj]

> Most fluent speakers of a language
> a) are constantly immersed in the relevant environment

I didn't say fluent. I said "without difficulty" - that's a lot less demanding, and allows practice to lead to fluency.

> b) have done lessons at school

That school lessons teach children to speak is a myth.

> c) dont have an ultra competitive learning environment to deal with (cant dance - wont dance)

You've lost me there. One of the problems of the class method is that it removes the competitive motivation.

> And stumbling to fluency in Spanish doesnt require you to step constantly on your dance partner's toes

Nor does learning to dance tango. Stepping on toes comes from the class method that drills steps without imparting the embrace.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Do you know any close embrace dancers in Buenos Aires?

Yes.

 

[chrisjj]

I am slowly becoming convinced that OE->CE transitions and CE->OE transitions in a dance are fiendishly difficult and should never, ever be done. What happens in general is that these transitions lead to CE danced with OE technique (i.e. the close embrace with a partner that manages her own axis)

Very interesting comment.

All the girls I've danced with from one Dutch dance school have just what you've described. They dance physically close but mechanically distant (with various guys). I find this much harder to accomodate than either regular close or regular open. I've not found this effect in any of thousands of other girls from many countries, so I wonder what the cause is. Perhaps related to another unusual factor of their learning - the instructor is a gay guy.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I suggest anyone having difficulty learning tango dancing by classes should try learning it by dancing. If that means paying someone for a private one-to-one session, fine. Your first pick might be your class teacher - if he can't teach you even direct through dance, then you certainly learned something worthwhile.

Ah, I see... you are making a distinction between group classes and other ways of learning tango from skilled practitioners.

But why an either/or?

Of course, people have to get out in the milongas to polish their dance. And yes, private lessons can often be better than group classes for those that can afford them. That doesn't mean that group classes have NO value, especially for beginners, as long as they aren't so big that the teacher never gives them any personal attention.

Do leaders in BA really get people to dance with them when they haven't had ANY instruction other than observing at a milonga? Some of the milongas are so packed you can't observe anything other than people's heads. Followers around here are leery of dancing with someone (ESPECIALLY in close embrace!) that has no idea what he's doing. That's a good way to get stepped on or otherwise hurt.

But if you learn only by dancing at a social dance, at some point, you danced without knowing what you are doing. In many places, it is frowned upon to attempt to learn a move at a milonga. A milonga, with a partner, is where you lead what you know. Adding to what you know has to be done elsewhere.

But then I'm here and you're there and rules are different everywhere
(hey, I made a poem! GO me! )

 

[bordertangoman]

This is usually a symptom of a follower who doesn't actually know how to dance CE using CE technique. I am slowly becoming convinced that OE->CE transitions and CE->OE transitions in a dance are fiendishly difficult and should never, ever be done. What happens in general is that these transitions lead to CE danced with OE technique (i.e. the close embrace with a partner that manages her own axis),

this is what I would call salon style AT.
Transitions are like anything else; something you can learn; I will use a transition to open embrace to any follower who cant follow or control her own axis, but I rarely need to dance a transition since if we are dancing well why bother. I'm more likely to change through choice of music and/or partner.

....which leads to a (imo) quite limited vocabulary. CE requires of the follower a different use of the dissociation, a different technique in the walk, a different use of the hip and spine, a shift from using the pivot, axis, and momentum as the base of the dance to using cross, alignment with the leader and the ground path as the basis of the dance. Its like the early days of the UCF - knowing about the long and middle range does not help if somebody closes in. And almost nobody does the close game and the open game equally well.

I do!

If a follower and leader are both equally skilled at both ranges transitions are a great way to show this off, but in most cases i see these transitions and notice that there is now a mismatch between their technique and their chosen range.

I dont understand what you are saying here.

One of the nice things at the moment is that nuevo CE dancers like Jaimes Friedgen are becoming more visible - it has always been frustrating to me that so few people realized the dynamic and technical possibilities and range of the CE. I hope that nuevo CE does to milonguero the same as nuevo OE has done to salon .

Gssh

is Jaimes Friedgen on youtube?

 

[bastet]

This is usually a symptom of a follower who doesn't actually know how to dance CE using CE technique. I am slowly becoming convinced that OE->CE transitions and CE->OE transitions in a dance are fiendishly difficult and should never, ever be done. What happens in general is that these transitions lead to CE danced with OE technique (i.e. the close embrace with a partner that manages her own axis), which leads to a (imo) quite limited vocabulary. CE requires of the follower a different use of the dissociation, a different technique in the walk, a different use of the hip and spine, a shift from using the pivot, axis, and momentum as the base of the dance to using cross, alignment with the leader and the ground path as the basis of the dance. Its like the early days of the UCF - knowing about the long and middle range does not help if somebody closes in. And almost nobody does the close game and the open game equally well. If a follower and leader are both equally skilled at both ranges transitions are a great way to show this off, but in most cases i see these transitions and notice that there is now a mismatch between their technique and their chosen range.


Gssh

yes- the techniques are different and difficult to combine, from what I have found.

Also- a the reverse also applies- a follower trying to do close embrace (weight shared) with a leader who doesn't know how is very uncomfortable, because he feels backweighted- someone will have to adapt their embrace in these instances if either one knows how- if not- then the dance breaks down, inevitably.

 

[Zoopsia59]

another unusual factor of their learning - the instructor is a gay guy.

You're just trying to stir up trouble any way you can aren't you?

 

[Zoopsia59]

This is usually a symptom of a follower who doesn't actually know how to dance CE using CE technique. I am slowly becoming convinced that OE->CE transitions and CE->OE transitions in a dance are fiendishly difficult and should never, ever be done. What happens in general is that these transitions lead to CE danced with OE technique (i.e. the close embrace with a partner that manages her own axis), which leads to a (imo) quite limited vocabulary. CE requires of the follower a different use of the dissociation, a different technique in the walk, a different use of the hip and spine, a shift from using the pivot, axis, and momentum as the base of the dance to using cross, alignment with the leader and the ground path as the basis of the dance.

Gssh

As usual Gssh comes through with clarity and wisdom! :applause:

 

[bastet]

One problem is that there is no single close embrace. You can dance full on close embrace and each still maintain your own axes, OR you can dance leaning on each other so that you would fall without your partner.

These each require different skills and each present their own sets of problems. As a lead, I find that close embrace with a leaning partner is more difficult than with a partner who manages her own balance.

Just because a follow has learned a weight shared close embrace, does not make her technique wrong. Perhaps it is wrong for you, or the style you dance, but you should read Gssh commentary on this.

 

[spectator]

Aaaaargh! the scourge of Tango L!!!

 

[bastet]

As usual Gssh comes through with clarity and wisdom! :applause:

absolutely.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Ah, well no surprise they've taken classes if they claim to be teachers.

But the vast majority of close-embrace dancers in BsAs have not.

I wouldn't know; I don't know the vast majority of close-embrace dancers in BsAs.

How did they learn then? Did they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Seems an incredibly inefficient way of learning to me...

I've noticed that just about everyone saying they find learning to dance tango difficult are trying to learn in classes.

Again, what's the alternative?

It's like:

1) I am trying to learn Spanish in classes and finding it difficult.

Spookily enough, I'm trying to learn Spanish now myself.

2) Every Spanish speaker I know has had classes.

Well yes. Even Spaniards have classes in how to use Spanish. Similarly, children in this country have English classes. It doesn't just "happen" - or if it does, it doesn't happen effectively.

Millions have learned Spanish without difficulty, because they learned naturally from those that speak it without difficulty. Without classes.

Are you saying that children in Spain don't have Spanish classes?

I suggest anyone having difficulty learning tango dancing by classes should try learning it by dancing.

Where? In a milonga?

(Actually, that might explain some London venues I know....)

If that means paying someone for a private one-to-one session, fine.

A private class, in fact.