So, if someone alternates pivot-based and walking-based movements in a flexible embrace and dances to traditional and non-traditional music this should appear to you as a strange mix of nuevo and salon?
"Figures of Argentine Tango" page
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Dave Bailey
Active Member
No. That should appear to me as if they're dancing to the music.
Unless you're hypothesising a single track which mixes traditional and non-traditional music? If so I agree that is strange, but even so they're still obviously dancing to the music. It's just that the music is strange.
Am I weird to expect a competent dancer to be able to dance appropriately to the style of music?
If by cadenas you mean something like
cadena: literally "a chain" - three or four steps involving change of direction that repeats itself.
Then I would suggest this is a sequence.
No, the weirdness is a dance with only pivot-based movements... I am just trying to understand your definition of nuevo as a dance.No. That should appear to me as if they're dancing to the music.
Unless you're hypothesising a single track which mixes traditional and non-traditional music? If so I agree that is strange, but even so they're still obviously dancing to the music. It's just that the music is strange.
Am I weird to expect a competent dancer to be able to dance appropriately to the style of music?
Actually, I am quite interested to this subject beacuse since I was a beginner I'm trying to understand what most people means by "nuevo" and the only conclusion that I reached is that nobody cares about what Naveira and Salas (who are claimed to be the inventors of nuevo) say, but nobody manages to give a consistent alternative definition. This is what a I find weird.
As a music, I think that nuevo should be properly refferred only to Piazzolla style, while everything else should be called neotango or simply non traditional tango. But it seems most people understand "nuevo" as all non traditional tango and that's not a big issue.
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
That's kind of the definition that I like.
I don't like to be tied to a particular style for a song. It's whatever fits the music.
I once saw a very nuevo oriented teacher demonstrate how volcadas, colgadas, and calecitas could be used to interpret di Sarli and other melodic traditional tango pieces. Very cool.Depending on why you are saying this, later Pugliesse certainly and possibally very late Troilo, is often classified in this way as well.
The reason for this classifcation is that they use the same instrumentation as traditional tango but the way the instruments are arranged within a track are different.
Joe
Forum Master
No, they're not really techniques either. They're elements or actions (that could be part of a sequence).
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I didn't say only pivot-based movements. I said it was based around the pivot. Is that distinction not clear?
Well, this is dance-forums. I assume we're mostly talking about dance.
Not so much.
I recognize that some movements in tango are pivot-based (ocho, calesita, planeo, lapiz, enrosque, ecc.) and some movement al walking-based (walking in parallel system, walking crossed system, cross, 8CB, etc). I can add some movements are neither of them (volcada, ocho milonguero, etc.). Others are both of them (cadena).
During a dance, all those types of movements are usually applied. In particular, a well balanced mix of walking and non walking based movements is essential to move in the dance floor without hurting other couples.
So what is the meaning of "nuevo is pivot-based movements, salon is walking-based movements" or "based around the pivot"?
Does it mean that if you do more pivot than walk you are dancing nuevo?
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Clearly.
Actually, it's very very easy to tell which movement is based around a pivot. Because there's a pivot in the movement. Funny that.
As an exercise, I'll let you guess how to tell that a movement is based around a step.
Thanks for the lesson.
The pivot is one key element - and again you seem to be willfully missing the entire concept of the words "based around".
You also seem to be ignoring my other 2 criteria for differentiation - the music and the embrace.
But if you seriously believe that people pivot as much in close embrace, to traditional music, as they do in open embrace to non-traditional music (and vice versa), then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
My personal definition works for me. It seems clear, objective and measurable. But it's my personal definition. I was asked how I defined it, and I replied.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the reason of your harshness and sarcasm.
I have nothing against pivots, nothing against open embrace, and nothing against non traditional music.
I'm just trying to understand why you define that as nuevo.
The pivot is a key element of tango at less since the floor of the ballrooms allowed it.
I just asked for clarification about the first one because it was not very clear to me and because it is quite uncommon: it's the first time I hear of it.
The second criterion has nothing to do with the dance, so I am ignoring it because we are talking about dance.
The third criterion is the one apparently adopted by most of people: they just use "nuevo" as a synonim for "open embrace". I have nothing to object except the pointlessness of calling it in that way.
I seriously believe that people pivot as much in tango salon, to traditional music, as they do in nuevo to non-traditional music, and maybe a little more.
Unless you are not confusing tango salon with apilado I just can't understand why you think there should be less pivots.
sixela
Well-Known Member
I have no such bias. Except against the caricature I just described, but to me that's not the definition of "nuevo". You're entitled to use whatever terms you're comfortable with; I just wanted to know what you meant.
Clearly, pivots aren't so new (in fact, 1910-1925 tango used to have a lot of them even in what was the basic 'walking' style), and Villa Urquiza style, which isn't that new, uses more than some other traditional styles meant for a packed dance floor with several lanes.
Now a pivotless colgada follwed by a volcada or a linear boleo, that I would call "nuevo". But that's just me, I don't have a particularly strict definition of nuevo.