Hearing the Clave and Slap of the Conga

Ok the bass timing I wrote seems wrong: but I'm finding it hard to attach #s

I'm listening to "Quitate La Mascara" from Ray Barreto's Salsa Caliente de nu Ny
listen to the bass and tell me what you hear, I doubt it's whole #s since it is connected to clave & conga

with sounds I hear
bass: dum-dum (step)2 dum-dum (step)6
conga: kum-kum pa ( step 2-3) kum-kum pa (step 6-7)
The clave is not audible but it's very strong, also the cowbell imitating it a bit

Edit: in the following song, the 1 falls right on the second bass "dum", of dum-dum. that's why it's easy to pick out :) and the 5 is on the second set of "dum-dum"s
(LOL wish I could write music)

but yeah try moving side to side on2, by listening to the bass
 
Wow Boriken, you sure have a way with words. Thanks!

I can relate to everything you said. Both you and Africana talked about delving deeper into the layers of music. That is where I am heading! Once in a while now, when dancing, I get into a meditative state. It's a new and weird feeling. I feel less physically connected with my partner but I feel more connected to the music which gives me a different feeling of connection with my partner. Right now I only experience that state a little. I'm sure in time it will be for the entire song. When I was in DC, I noticed for the first time that the really advanced dancers have a sense of smoothness that comes with executing to the rhythm of the music. It's something that extends beyond just having a physically light and smooth lead.

What I love about African Dance is the first thing they stress is feeling and moving to the rhythm of the music. In my first class, I'm having trouble and my instructor does the move next to me and says "stop thinking, stop thinking, your counting, your counting; feel the drums, they are already counting for you". I just smiled and thought, hey that's why I'm doing this class :)

We kind of have it backwards in Salsa don't we. We are so focused on intricate turn patterns we lose sight of the music. It's only after 3 years where I can execute these intricate turn patterns without thinking much that I realize, hey I'm not dancing to the rhythm of the music.
 
africana said:
dancing "in" the music makes it feel like your body and feet are PART of the music, such beats are no longer separated out, they feel together, one causes the next. does that make sense? that's why i find it challenging to count out or write out timing
Click to expand...

That's the stage we all need to get to. My African Dance instructor is like that. She sometimes trys to count to break something down then she messes it up. Says "I can't count, all I hear is drums in my head". Saturday is live drum class and Tues is more of a learning break down explanation class. On Tues she normally hums the beat. I really like it she hums the beat. It really does make it easier and less sterile than numbers. Maybe Salsa instructors should hum the beat rather than use numbers.
 
Counting

Are you serious ? you never count ?-- how in gods earth do you stay with any rythm without a mental count ? -- the very separation of any given movement in dance ,any orchestra leader etc. are counting in beats and bars ,q and s or any other method you wish .It may be sub concious ( the way its supposed to be ) otherwise, how do your motor skills know how to propel you ?. And are not the very things people here are saying related to counting, which becomes imprinted (hopefully ) in your dance execution .
 
tangotime said:
Are you serious ? you never count ?-- how in gods earth do you stay with any rythm without a mental count ? -- the very separation of any given movement in dance ,any orchestra leader etc. are counting in beats and bars ,q and s or any other method you wish .It may be sub concious ( the way its supposed to be ) otherwise, how do your motor skills know how to propel you ?. And are not the very things people here are saying related to counting, which becomes imprinted (hopefully ) in your dance execution .
Click to expand...
sorry, we're discussing -real- salsa, the strongly afrocuban type
 
africana said:
sorry, we're discussing -real- salsa, the strongly afrocuban type
Click to expand...

Heheh, yes. Don't forget TT, the 8 - count measure is a European formalism that came to the music and dancing LONG after the rhythms were forged. All the talk of "highly syncopated" is coming from the PoV of someone who counts in equal measures. This morning I was reading some rhythms from the Salsa Guidebook and they look really complex until you think in clave rather than in pulse. I was actually trying to figure out a "better" notation for latin music this morning.

So without disrespect to africana, here are the rhythms of conga and bass tumbao with a european's count :-)

Conga goes

(one)
(two)SLAP
(three)
(four-and)KUM-KUM

Bass can vary but usually goes something like
(one)
+
(two)
+ BOM
(three)
+
(four) BOM
+
(one)
+
(two)
+ BOM
(three)
+
(four) BOM
+


Put them together and you get

(one)
(two-and)SLAP-BOM
(three)
(four-and)BOM-KUM

on four, the bass and the KUM sound together, giving the four a heavier feel. This individual beat has a name (is it bomba?) and in some tracks it's quite emphatic.

So, while the melodic phrases usually start on one, the real emphasis in the rhythms are 2 (on the 2 side of the clave) and 4 or 2+ on the 3-side. This emphasis, once you hear it, really helps you believe in dancing on 2 - the SLAP makes you want your break step there!
 
counts

thanks for reminding me Steve, just guess i am more ingrained in dancing to rythm counts when and where appropriate, but, point taken . altho. much easier to teach , and get, usually, quicker responses from students with a slow and q definition .( my logic,I,dont dance to #, I dance to " speed " .
--- but heres an oddity-- e. coast swing in triple time, generally works better numerically and in single time s & q, tho. i still give the beat and bar value. Two of the most important factors for beginners, -- direction and speed .
 
sweavo said:
I was actually trying to figure out a "better" notation for latin music this morning.
Click to expand...

no offense sweavie (hey, how do you like that name?--maybe it sounds a bit too close to 'sweetie' -- never mind), but as good a job as you did counting out the conga rhythms for us with your notation, i'd rather stick to what's being used already i think :wink:
 
Josh said:
no offense sweavie (hey, how do you like that name?--maybe it sounds a bit too close to 'sweetie' -- never mind), but as good a job as you did counting out the conga rhythms for us with your notation, i'd rather stick to what's being used already i think :wink:
Click to expand...

"Call me anything you want as long as you call me." (C) 1993 Culture Beat

Hah. That wasn't my "better" notation. That's just something that works (or does it?) in an internet forum. I've just been playing with lilypond which is pretty http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/~sweavo/music/notation/paila.png http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/~sweavo/music/notation/cascara.png but a bit intensive for just knocking out a sketch.

The thing about notating clave based music in 4/4 time is that you end up with lots of tied quavers since the 2nd clave beat on the 3 side is syncopated... it's even worse for a rumba clave. Music notation wasn't designed with rhythm in mind, it's just had more and more afterthougts cobbled onto it...
 
KiwiMambo said:
Wow Boriken, you sure have a way with words. Thanks!

I can relate to everything you said. Both you and Africana talked about delving deeper into the layers of music. That is where I am heading! Once in a while now, when dancing, I get into a meditative state. It's a new and weird feeling. I feel less physically connected with my partner but I feel more connected to the music which gives me a different feeling of connection with my partner. Right now I only experience that state a little. I'm sure in time it will be for the entire song.
Click to expand...
TOTALLY!! It's hard to explain this state of being, or to communicate it to any partner. Sometimes I feel guilty that I cannot transfer or share it, so I usually limit my "fall" into this state to when I'm dancing alone. Like yesterday, I had a music-night, when I go to a non-dancer venue with a particularly good live band.
It's like falling into a trance, getting into the center of the sounds, your body becomes an extension, even awareness becomes non-concrete....I could go on LOL

KiwiMambo said:
When I was in DC, I noticed for the first time that the really advanced dancers have a sense of smoothness that comes with executing to the rhythm of the music. It's something that extends beyond just having a physically light and smooth lead.
Click to expand...
This is because there's no rush, no effort to catch or stay with time. The timing is in you because the music is in you, no matter how exotic the particular song 8)

KiwiMambo said:
What I love about African Dance is the first thing they stress is feeling and moving to the rhythm of the music. In my first class, I'm having trouble and my instructor does the move next to me and says "stop thinking, stop thinking, your counting, your counting; feel the drums, they are already counting for you". I just smiled and thought, hey that's why I'm doing this class :)

We kind of have it backwards in Salsa don't we. We are so focused on intricate turn patterns we lose sight of the music. It's only after 3 years where I can execute these intricate turn patterns without thinking much that I realize, hey I'm not dancing to the rhythm of the music.
Click to expand...
Agreed! It's due to the teaching over-focus on numbers too, which makes not much sense when the music is non-linear!!!!!
The numbers are a help for learning to communicate with a partner, to learn lead and follow, but beyond that, we need to dance to the music
This is why the western teaching culture dilutes salsa
 
sweavo said:
Heheh, yes. Don't forget TT, the 8 - count measure is a European formalism that came to the music and dancing LONG after the rhythms were forged. All the talk of "highly syncopated" is coming from the PoV of someone who counts in equal measures. This morning I was reading some rhythms from the Salsa Guidebook and they look really complex until you think in clave rather than in pulse. I was actually trying to figure out a "better" notation for latin music this morning.

So without disrespect to africana, here are the rhythms of conga and bass tumbao with a european's count :-)

Conga goes

(one)
(two)SLAP
(three)
(four-and)KUM-KUM

Bass can vary but usually goes something like
(one)
+
(two)
+ BOM
(three)
+
(four) BOM
+
(one)
+
(two)
+ BOM
(three)
+
(four) BOM
+


Put them together and you get

(one)
(two-and)SLAP-BOM
(three)
(four-and)BOM-KUM

on four, the bass and the KUM sound together, giving the four a heavier feel. This individual beat has a name (is it bomba?) and in some tracks it's quite emphatic.

So, while the melodic phrases usually start on one, the real emphasis in the rhythms are 2 (on the 2 side of the clave) and 4 or 2+ on the 3-side. This emphasis, once you hear it, really helps you believe in dancing on 2 - the SLAP makes you want your break step there!
Click to expand...
cool 8)

if it helps one more person understand then EXCELLENT :D
 
Steve

Point well made about music ala rythm. Musicians play for effect ,and we mere mortals attempt to interpret their meanings thru dance.I think the point is made abundantly clear when dancing to guapacha rythm in guajida or cha. they sure as hell weren,t thinking of us!!!!!
 
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