Holistic Health Thread

samina said:
if evidence supports that fluoride can diminish thyroid function, and evidence supports that diminished thyroid function commonly involves weight gain due to diminished metabolic function...that does not for you potentially correlate fluoridation with obesity?
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First, I don't see plausible data in my admittedly offhand searches of scholar.google.com that show that the amounts of fluoride in fluoridated water cause specific thyroid problems in anything like 2/3 of the population (which is the proportion we're looking at with overweight+obese U.S. Americans).

Second, I don't see plausible data that any interesting percentage of that 2/3 of the population are overweight or obese because thyroid problems made them so.

Third, I don't see any explanation for why, if fluoridated water causes thyroid problems that cause obesity, as much 1/3 of the U.S. population, which mostly grew up with fluoridated water, is *not* obese.

ETA:
If you have data to offer on any of those counts, I will be interested to see it.
 
samina said:
fluoride is in many substances, now, in addition to drinking water...
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In point of fact, I don't see evidence that diagnosable thyroid problems affect anywhere close to 2/3 of the U.S. population, whether attributable to water fluoridation, total dietary fluoride intake, or any other cause.

I do see this link from the Cleveland clinic:
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com...crinology/hypothyroidism-and-hyperthyroidism/

It includes the following:

Hypothyroidism results from reduced effects of thyroid hormone on tissues. Hypothyroidism is more common in women, has total prevalence of 1% to 2%,1 and increases with age (~10% adults >65 years). In the U.S. population, prevalence of biochemical hypothyroidism is 4.6%, but clinically evident hypothyroidism is present in 0.3%.2 Congenital hypothyroidism is among the most common congenital diseases, with an incidence of 1/4000 newborns. Higher risk of hypothyroidism is seen in persons with the conditions listed in Box 1.
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DL said:
In point of fact, I don't see evidence that diagnosable thyroid problems affect anywhere close to 2/3 of the U.S. population, whether attributable to water fluoridation, total dietary fluoride intake, or any other cause.

I do see this link from the Cleveland clinic:
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com...crinology/hypothyroidism-and-hyperthyroidism/

It includes the following:
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Incidentally, I selected hypothyroidism because a listed possible symptom is weight gain; whereas for hyperthyroidism a listed possible symptom is weight loss.

Also, there is a 'box 2' listing causes of hypothyroidism. I can't find 'fluoride' anywhere on that whole page.
 
DL said:
In point of fact, I don't see evidence that diagnosable thyroid problems affect anywhere close to 2/3 of the U.S. population, whether attributable to water fluoridation, total dietary fluoride intake, or any other cause.
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fwiw, that hasn't been my assertion. IAE, you are entitled to your own conclusions.
 
samina said:
FTR, i never mind sharing my findings, but when something so well-established is a google away and someone can't be bothered by the least effort...:rolleyes:

i take it as lack of interest, and we all have the right to be disinterested.
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Incidentally, this is what really spurred me on with this sub-topic. Also incidentally, I don't grant that an assertion that "a google away" lies evidence that a claim is "so well-established" constitutes actual support for the claim.

Perhaps it could be stipulated by now that I have expended at least "the least effort". No?


samina said:
fwiw, that hasn't been my assertion. IAE, you are entitled to your own conclusions.
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Fair enough. So I'll ask for a clarification. What did you mean by the comment below?

samina said:
i think that there are hidden, underlying contributing factor for the increasing widespread obesity, factors that are generally not recognized as potentially having significant effect. for example:

- widespread use of fluoridated water and the damaging effect fluoride has on the thyroid gland.
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DL, my primary assertion was "that there are hidden, underlying contributing factors for the increasing widespread obesity, factors that are generally not recognized as potentially having significant effect." fluoridation was one such factor, of many, and i only listed a few examples.

my assertion was in response to others boiling the issue down only to diet & lack of exercise. generally speaking, i think there is much more going on. that is my point. as to fluoride's role in the mix... we've touched on it and there may be more to it, but my intent wasn't to write a dissertation on that subject here that could withstand peer review.
 
samina said:
DL, my primary assertion was "that there are hidden, underlying contributing factors for the increasing widespread obesity, factors that are generally not recognized as potentially having significant effect." fluoridation was one such factor, of many, and i only listed a few examples.

my assertion was in response to others boiling the issue down only to diet & lack of exercise. generally speaking, i think there is much more going on. that is my point. as to fluoride's role in the mix... we've touched on it and there may be more to it, but my intent wasn't to write a dissertation on that subject here that could withstand peer review.
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Taking in more calories than are expended is what makes people gain weight.

Why is that happening more now than in times past? I'm perfectly willing to agree that there's a rich set of factors that could come into play there. Behaviors have changed, economics have changed, job requirements have changed, transportation dynamics have changed, etc., etc. It seems as though a great deal of conversation is possible around stuff like that.

If, however, specific claims are made that e.g. fluoride, mercury, or sweeteners are making people fatter, I will ask for supporting evidence of the specific claims every time. I don't mean peer review; just evidence.

Incidentally, for corn syrup (which you also mentioned) I think I myself see evidence. I watched that HBO documentary I mentioned, in which the point was made not that corn syrup is intrinsically unhealthy, but that it's a highly efficient calorie-delivery mechanism, widely available, cheap (partly because of government subsidies), profitable to sell (with 90% margins compared to say 10% margins for fresh vegetables), very effectively advertised, and easy to consume in large quantities. Furthermore, production rates correlate strongly with obesity rates over decades.

That is, there are numerous measurable ways in which market forces have converged to put a sugary drink in your hand and to influence you to drink it.

Even all of that doesn't really offer satisfactory explanation of why people are getting heavier at the rate they're getting heavier. But it is evidence to support a claim that HFCS is tied up in the problem.
 
samina said:
what i'm suggesting is that there are MANY other SIMULTANEOUS, widespread, culturally predominant & systemically damaging influences that are occurring, en masse and with unprecedented prevalence. it's not like "back in the day". look at the trend of what the masses of morbidly obese people are eating and these influences tend to converge in most of their diets like a perfect storm, a nutritional apocalypse.
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Fascinating read, sami and DL! I say that in all seriousness. I love witnessing the discourse.

I have to say that the above is my view, as well. Of course, we all love to cozy up to the idea of caloric burn, because it gives us *the illusion of* control. We all like the idea that, if we control caloric intake and exercise enough, we'll maintain or lose weight. But there are many, many other things that factor into weight -- well-established, "scientifically" supported things. Things like stress, for example. Or sleep. Or heredity. Or age. Why is it such a stretch to consider the possibility that widespread use of food additives might have a role?

Note: I googled info to support each of the assertions above, but decided to take sami's approach and let folks find their own info, if they want it.

It's already well-established that ones weight, while greatly influenced by caloric burn, is not that simple. I wish it was. It would be great if there was a simple x+y = z equation to describe weight management. There isn't, IMV. If folks want to discuss which terms belong in the equation, go for it, but can we at least meet at a place where we agree that it's not a simple equation we're dealing with?

Personally, I think sami is onto something and have committed to doing further personal research, to try to understand how and how much environmental factors, social factors and my dietary choices affect me and my loved ones.

Personal note: It was never the intent of this thread to ask anyone to write a dissertation. I do understand that we have scientists and skeptics on board, so I try to add hard data, when I can. But the basic goal, here, is to exchange ideas.
 
Wow- this is a really popular thread. that being said i did not read every post but just wanted to comment about the posts regarding fresh greens with blood thinners.

coumadin "thins" the blood by inhibiting the Vit K dependent clotting factors in your blood that are produced by your liver. fresh greens contain large amounts of Vit K- thus the "antidote" to coumadin. so as was previously stated- if your grandma wants to eat a fixed amount of greens in her daily diet she could do so but otherwise her clotting status would vary greatly from day to day and she may not be getting the benefit she needs at the hour that her body decides to have a stroke or other problem. I think even a fixed amount of greens would be questionable since the available nutrient in any fruit or veggie varies greatly depending on how fresh it is, where it was grown etc.
 
DL said:
Incidentally, for corn syrup (which you also mentioned) I think I myself see evidence. I watched that HBO documentary I mentioned, in which the point was made not that corn syrup is intrinsically unhealthy, but that it's a highly efficient calorie-delivery mechanism, widely available, cheap (partly because of government subsidies), profitable to sell (with 90% margins compared to say 10% margins for fresh vegetables), very effectively advertised, and easy to consume in large quantities. Furthermore, production rates correlate strongly with obesity rates over decades.

That is, there are numerous measurable ways in which market forces have converged to put a sugary drink in your hand and to influence you to drink it.
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A Super Big Gulp or is it Double Big Gulp (64 ounces of beverage at 7-11) contains about 750 calories, if it's sweetened soda pop with light ice. Meaning, on a hot summer day in Texas :wink: one could easily drink, for less than two dollars, enough calories for (arguably) a large meal, without ever giving it a thought. Hmm ...

Even all of that doesn't really offer satisfactory explanation of why people are getting heavier at the rate they're getting heavier. But it is evidence to support a claim that HFCS is tied up in the problem.
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Hear ya, DL. I think the assertion being made is that the whole, diet-wise, may be greater than the sum of its parts. HFCS may not explain everything. Neither does use of goobledy-gook chemical #1. Neither does a sedentary lifestyle. Neither does increasing portion size. Neither does the social trend of eating out more often. Neither does this, that or the other. But, when you put them all together, you have the disaster that we see today. That is what (I think) sami is saying. Crappy food additives play a role.

Personally, I believe that social trends and the economy are playing a role too, although I doubt there's much data out there.

Poor economy = people trying to eat on the cheap. There's nothing cheaper or more convenient than the value menu at your local fast food joint. Have you ever looked at the value menu at your local fast food joint? *shudder* $1 will get you a double cheeseburger at one restaurant. $1 will get you a breaded, deep fried, chicken patty slathered with mayo at a different restaurant. And so on. Eating garbage is cheap. The economy is bad. A lot of people don't think about the idea that they may be eating garbage. You do the math.

Social stuff: More and more people siting on their butts, watching big-screen TVs, playing video games, checking out facebook or twitter, rather than getting up and getting out. Who's actually out doing anything, anymore?

Yes. At the end of the day, you could boil it down to that simple calorie equation, if you wanted to, BUT ... the calorie equation existed fifty years ago, when the rates of obesity were a fraction of what they are now. The question is, "What is different now?"
 
latervet1 said:
Wow- this is a really popular thread. that being said i did not read every post but just wanted to comment about the posts regarding fresh greens with blood thinners.

coumadin "thins" the blood by inhibiting the Vit K dependent clotting factors in your blood that are produced by your liver. fresh greens contain large amounts of Vit K- thus the "antidote" to coumadin. so as was previously stated- if your grandma wants to eat a fixed amount of greens in her daily diet she could do so but otherwise her clotting status would vary greatly from day to day and she may not be getting the benefit she needs at the hour that her body decides to have a stroke or other problem. I think even a fixed amount of greens would be questionable since the available nutrient in any fruit or veggie varies greatly depending on how fresh it is, where it was grown etc.
Click to expand...


Woah! Thank you for the clarification. I never understood why the no greens recommendation was made. That makes sense. :cool: :-D
 
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