How much is too much to pay for a lesson?

[lynn]

that depends on a teacher.
I had a teacher who loved teaching beginners since they never questioned whatever he told them to do. when I started asking "what if" questions and taking lessons from different teachers in addition to his lessons, he didn't enjoy teaching me as much any longer.

yikes! this is exactly what happened to me with one of my teachers. He preferred me to not ask any questions and just do as i'm told. Our lessons ended up being quite unpleasant when i started asking the why & when & how.... i guess sometimes they feel as if their authority's being challenged???

 

[wyllo]

I find it hard to believe that you can learn much in an environment where you're not allowed to ask questions. But, maybe that's just because I know it wouldn't work for me!

 

[redhead]

yikes! this is exactly what happened to me with one of my teachers. He preferred me to not ask any questions and just do as i'm told. Our lessons ended up being quite unpleasant when i started asking the why & when & how.... i guess sometimes they feel as if their authority's being challenged???

I think unexperienced teachers feel threatened when you ask questions 'cause they can't give you good answers. Or, they can give you vague and/or incorrect answers and get upset when you question them (especially when it's the opposite of what a better coach just told you on the same issue).
(At least that was my case)
Quite the opposite, knowledgeable teachers are thrilled to work with questions (and I'm always astonished by how a good coach can fix something you've been struggling with for weeks in just a few minutes)

 

[smoozer]

yikes! this is exactly what happened to me with one of my teachers. He preferred me to not ask any questions and just do as i'm told. Our lessons ended up being quite unpleasant when i started asking the why & when & how.... i guess sometimes they feel as if their authority's being challenged???

Either that or they don't really know the why's and are just parroting what they've heard or been told.

 

[Twilight_Elena]

My teacher was always a person who saw things and just did them, so she had trouble understanding why I was asking so many questions. But luckily she is also exceptionally good at analysing teh step because she knows exactly what she's doing.
The fact that I ask a lot of questions bugs some teachers. It's unnerving for sure. I used to ask for amazing detail from my very first lessons, and for most teachers it's definitely easier to just show a step and let the student do it. But they are usually very helpful nevertheless.

Twilight Elena

 

[ChaChaMama]

I just sat down and read all ten pages of this thread. Wow!

Some thoughts:

RE: The college professor vs. 1st grade teacher teaching you how to add.
I think it is important to bear in mind that some college math professors are horrible at teaching addition, and feel like they have no idea how to tackle remedial students (i.e., students who reach college without mastering basic skills). It's not that they don't know how to add, but it has been so long since they have had to think about such a basic, elementary concept that they may not know how to explain it. Similarly, many English PhDs are stumped by remedial English students who pepper their essays with sentence fragments, run-on sentences, and grammatical mistakes of every flavor. Just because English PhDs know how to write well does not mean that they necessarily know how to teach writing to those for whom it is not intuitive.

The relevance to dance is that while some top competitors may be the best possible teachers at every level, one should not necessarily assume that that is the case. Some may not know how to talk to the couple that has been dancing international latin for five years but still doesn't really step onto straight legs when dancing cha-cha and rumba, or who can't maintain a decent dance frame in international standard even though they have had five years of lessons.

Also, as an aside, college professors who whine that they don't make much more than 1st grade teachers are either A) wrong, or B) live in states with really good teachers' unions! (I'm a college professor, and while we don't make as much as corporate lawyers, we are paid handsomely compared to elementary school teachers!)

RE: Lesson prices and ethics.
We live in a capitalist country, for better and for worse. There are hotels that charge $600 or more a night, and you can't check in until 3 PM and have to check out by noon. That means you are paying $28.57/hr...and you probably aren't even spending every possible minute in your hotel room! Is it worth almost 48 cents per minute simply to have the right to return to a hotel room with a bed and a TV in a desirable vacation area when there are much cheaper hotels in the world? That really depends on you and what you want out of your vacation. Same goes for lessons.

I think that as long as pros aren't engaging in discrimination against any group (e.g., they can't charge different amounts to people of different races), they can charge whatever the market will bear.

ChaChaMama

 

[wyllo]

But there is a difference between what people can do and what they should do. I have met several very good pros who consciously limit what they charge for lessons because they want ballroom to be accessible to a wider variety of people and I really respect that. On the other hand, if a pro decides to charge more per hour so they can teach fewer lessons and earn the same amount (and increase their own practice & free time) I certainly respect that decision as well. There are many motivations for setting price and what the market will bear is just a part of that decision-making process.

 

[cantskiforlife]

Well said ChaChaMama!

I would never work with a teacher that refused to let the students ask questions. First off, the only way to improve is to first understand what you are doing wrong and then change it. If a teacher does not know how to fix the problem, or at least identify it, they are not worth the $$. Imagine trying to learn rise and fall from someone who simply walks through the steps and then asks you repeat them. Now imagine learning rise and fall from someone who sits you down and says, the reason we rise is _____, the reason we lower is ____. Instead of trying to imitate a motion, you now know the principle behind the motion and can use it in all of your dances.

But there is a difference between what people can do and what they should do.

Who is determining what someone "should" do? Is it you? Me? The government? The person who wants what that person has? The actual individual?

I point this out so that "you" realize that no one has a claim to anything other than their own life. If you claim more than that, you are stepping on the rights of another person. Would you like it if someone stepped on Your rights?

 

[alemana]

take a breath. "rights" are not the issue here.

Read carefully - the points wyllo were making were balanced and considered many aspects of the THEORETICAL (lights should be flashing here! ding ding DING!) discussion we are having.

when there's a thread called LISTEN UP ALL YOU PROS I AM GOD AND HERE IS WHAT YOU MUST DO, then get your goat up.


geez, i feel like i'm back teaching rhetoric 101 sometimes.

 

[caityrosey]

Who is determining what someone "should" do? Is it you? Me? The government? The person who wants what that person has? The actual individual?

I point this out so that "you" realize that no one has a claim to anything other than their own life. If you claim more than that, you are stepping on the rights of another person. Would you like it if someone stepped on Your rights?

You are right, no one can require anything of anyone.
"Should" is a moral/ethical dilemma that goes beyond mere supply and demand or what one person can ask of another. No one should, as you say "step on the rights" of anyone else. We are asking whether teachers should make the CHOICE to make the information they have to share more accessible. Teachers have to want to do this, no one can force them to--nor would we want to force them. Teachers should consider the choice to make their lessons more accessible because of more long term goals--the good that wider access to information does for the dance community as a whole. More access to information should lead to wider participation--that's usually how things like this work. We complain about how little interest there is in our sport in the US, yet we fail to recognize the elitism that contributes to it. Western society is very individualistic, sometimes at the expense of a community-oriented perspective that would help us to better understand our problems and find solutions.

 

[cantskiforlife]

Read carefully - the points wyllo were making were balanced and considered many aspects of the THEORETICAL (lights should be flashing here! ding ding DING!) discussion we are having.

I agree with everything Wyllo said after the first line. I honestly don't know where you are going with the "Theoretical" unless its to say calm down, in whcih case I should say that I am very calm. I do think that the points are valid here. This dicusssion is about what "we" as a ballroom community think about the price of lessons. If someone thinks that price gouging is bad because it has the potential to limit the growth of the sport, those thoughts belong here. If someone things that price gouging is ok and that it will not hurt the sport, that belongs here too.

Please let me know what your concern is.

geez, i feel like i'm back teaching rhetoric 101 sometimes.

But its soo much fun

 

[Chris Stratton]

I don't believe that what individual teachers charge is a primary driving factor in the cost of access to ballroom dancing information.

- A much more important factor is the tradition of offering only private lessons (instead of detailed group classes) for all serious training.

- The best teachers in an area are often not its most expensive (though they may be above the average), while the worst are almost never the cheapest. Expertise as a student/costumer thus has a major impact on the cost of information.

- The majority of lessons taught are not an effective use of the teacher's time as a source of knowledge. Instead, the teacher is trainer, taskmaster, peacemaker, partner, personal trainer, entertainer, therapist, babysitter, etc.

 

[Katarzyna]

- Instead, the teacher is trainer, taskmaster, peacemaker, partner, personal trainer, entertainer, therapist, babysitter, etc.

Very true

 

[cantskiforlife]

We are asking whether teachers should make the CHOICE to make the information they have to share more accessible.

Asking if teachers should make a particular choice or not is removing the choice from them. Should teachers choose to give away lessons? This is the same as saying should teachers give away lessons? It removes the teacher from the equation and focuses on what others want the teacher to do. I know this is repetative, but the choice is the teachers and no one elses.

More access to information should lead to wider participation.

Does greater access to ballroom information lead to wider participation? I think that greater visibility and good marketing lead to wider participation. The technical information is secondary.

Look at football (american or soccer). The popularity is huge in comparison with ballroom dancing, but it came about because it is easy to pass a ball from one person to another and then run down the field. It is rather easy at the novice levels. Don't get me wrong, I played for years and practices were a bitch. But at the basic level, all you need to know is how to throw and kick.

Unfortunately ballroom is not like any other sport. It is sensual, romantic, sexy, and very erotic! What this means is that in most cases, guys must touch girls (and vice versa) and both parties must be comfortable with the closeness, themselves, and another partner. I say unfortunately, because in this sense, America and much of the world is still to conservative.

I actually don't think the sport is elitest. Most dancers I know scrape by. I only know one instructor that owns a mercedes. And that is because the studio he works at is well managed. I think that many people believe ballroom is elitest because of the beautiful & expensive gowns. However, when you look at the core of the ballroom community, what do you see? Competitors? We make up a small portion of the business. Most of it comes from newlyweds and the older generations who use it as a social tool. And they really don't have a need for the technical information. Most simply want to learn how to do a box step.

I wonder... Did anyone read down this far?

 

[fascination]

i did...and i agree that beyond comps and I mean big ones, it isn't so elitist at all.....folks who live in large urban areas may not be as aware of this though