Milonga Syncopation

[Gssh]

.... If this is a regular milonga step pattern:
x.x.x.x. or 1.2.3.4,
some teachers say that adding a step (a syncopation) gives traspie, like this:
x.x&x.x. or 1.2&3.4.
......That may be a syncopation to a dancer, but not to a musician. To a musician a syncopation is not adding a step, but shifting the emphatic beat to an unexpected place.
.....I've watched at milongas and on Youtube, but all traspies seem to be done by adding a subdivided step, rather than by shifting the step from the regular beat to a different place.

What say you?

This is one of my pet peeves, so i have plenty to say

A "dancer syncopation" is the same thing as a "musician syncopation", the only reason there seems to be a difference is because it is taught badly. A traspie ("stumble") is a rhytmic pattern that creates a syncopation by swinging a note/off-beat syncopation. It is fundametally different pattern than double time
If this is the regular milonga step pattern:
x.....x.....x.....x or 1.....2.....3.....4
then just adding a step/doubletiming gives us this:
x..&..x.....x.....x or 1..&..2.....3.....4
which is NOT a traspie. a traspie is this:
x.&...x.....x.....x or 1.&...2.....3.....4
or
x&....x.....x.....x or 1&....2.....3.....4
it tends to be taught as a doubletime because it is easier to explain, and (i think) because people who are sensitive to the rhythm in the music will end up with a traspie anyway - the biggest problem with talking about milonga is that people instinctivly use the music to dance something different than they think they are dancing. I am not really sure if this is visible on youtube, especially as the music tends to be a bit offset on these videos so that subtle rhythmic variations are not really visible. (because of that i tend to watch tango on youtube with the sound off- the fact that music and picture are sometimes off-sync drives me crazy).
Other variations of a milonga rhythm that you see much more rarely because they have to be explicitly taught that way would be:
x....x'......x.....x or even
x...x'.......x.....x

This is the key to dancing slow milonga that feels like a slow milonga and not like a tango. Milonga is more obviously polyrhythmic than tango (though i think even tango should be danced less straight than it usually is.

There are two completely different things that various teachers call a traspie.
One is the (so called) syncopation (actually just Quick-Quick-Slow rhythm steps, like rock steps).
The second thing is something that does not involve any type of Q-Q-S rhythm at all. It is basically a touch (a foot movement in any direction that end with touching the floor, but without a weight change) done on a slow beat, followed by an actual step (with the same foot that did the "touch") on the next slow beat.

Again, i think this is based on teachers not understanding what they are really trying to teach/why what they do in their dance works with the milonga rhythm:
One should be fastQuick-slowQick-Slow to get the syncopation, and the second thing is a way to cheat yourself to the difference between a fastSlow and a slowSlow by doing one without a weightchange, and one with a weightchange.

Counting (even if only to identify the beats you mean) is out. Using expressions like Quick & Slow is out. It's as though we are meant to believe that somehow tango is above all such mechanical contrivances - that we feel the dance in such sophisticated ways, that to actually be able to clearly say what it is we do, and when we do it is, well, vulgar.

I think the problem is that what makes tango a tango is that it is impliedly polyrhythmic. One of my tango teachers once expressed it like that: "Tango is a latin dance, just like salsa. But that is hidden, because a tango orchestra has no percussion - the dancers are the percussion, and are responsible for supporting all the underlying implied polyrhythm in the music. " And i think some of the dancers have forgotten this secret that they are supposed to guard and sneak under the straigh and stuffy surface of tango . Or if you think about tango as an african dance - the orchestra is just the singing - the dancers are responsible for the clapping, and the stomping, and all percussion. There are usually at least 3 rhythms under each tango, and i guess one could ask different people in a class to count different ones so that people feel the way that they move apart and together again, and how that creates tension and dynamics - or do it like in african dance where you clap and step different rhythms, but i think it would be difficult in the average class.
A few teachers try to do 2 rhythms by asking people to listen to the straight beat, and then clap to something else, or they try to show the dynamics of the rhythms moving against each other by singing how it is supposed to feel, something like "Tat tat tat tat" for single beat , "tatatatatatatat" for double, and "tarratata tarratata" for traspie. (there actually seems to be (have been?) a convention for how to sing these - a few of the older teachers seemed to use the same words for this, but i can't remeber them, i just remember that they were quite specific and unlike anything else i have heard people use to sing a rhythm).

I said that it left me on the opposite foot than he expected.

I agree with him - a leader does not "expect" what foot the followe is on - he marks something, and then follows whatever the follower actually did - that is what the embrace is for - the leader feeling where the follower is. The leader dances with the followers feet - he knows when the weight is shifted, and then he can do one thing, or if the weight is not shifted, and then does something else. The follower has the responsibility to maintain the leaders axis, the leader has the responsibility to follow the follower. So if the leader does a fake step, and the follower doesn't then we now are in the cross system, and there are lots of cool things we can do - including a few dozen ways to get back into the parallel system. The leader can not expect anything of the follower, but has to be ready to follow whatever she does.
It is of course easier if she does something conventional, but especially in milonga part of the fun is in the different things that both people hear, and how their footwork and rhythms shift against each other. And just like in tango the follower decisively stepping on the music gives the leader something to riff off, no matter what he was thinking would happen.

Gssh

 

[Zoopsia59]

As for them being 'difficult' or 'advanced', I don't think I would agree. At least not if the rhythm being danced comes directly from the music (ie that the beat divisions are not arbitrary). Given the energy that can be put into the step and its 'rebound', I think they can be easy to lead & follow, once you have some familiarity with the idea at all. Not for complete beginners, but a natural development from simpler rock steps.

Well, to be fair.. it wasn't hard to follow when Omar led it...

I haven't had as much luck following less skilled leaders, nor have I learned myself how to lead it.

 

[Gssh]

Well, to be fair.. it wasn't hard to follow when Omar led it...

I haven't had as much luck following less skilled leaders, nor have I learned myself how to lead it.

The key to leading this is for me to be conscious that the "deep meaning" of this is not "no weightchange and then weightchange" but "really, really fast step-so fast that i don't have time (and don't give time to the follower) for a weightchange, and then drawing out the time till i land the second step like taffy so i am getting back on the base timing - the feeling is something like daTaaaa". I don't lead a "step without weightchange" but lead a step, and then interrupt it before she (and i) arrice at the new base - kinda like a boleo.

Gssh

 

[UKDancer]

I was just going to make the comparison with leading a boleo - but you beat me to it!

We do very much the same thing, in vals, when we dance on 1 |1 |12 |1 ||. The 12 gives the syncopation: another form of the TaDah.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I agree with him - a leader does not "expect" what foot the followe is on -

Gssh

Actually, you don't agree with him. (because you focused on one word instead of what I was really saying about which foot you end up on when you do odd or even numbers of traspie sequences compared to not doing any traspie)

Perhaps "expect" isn't the best word, since he did say that if I ended up not where he intended, he could simply get out of it as you say, based on cross system.

In reality though, it is all very fast, and he usually didn't realize I was on the "wrong" foot and ended up kicking me before he realized where I was (and wasn't). Also, since he was trying to teach me something, getting out of it smoothly regardless of what I did wasn't his top priority.. teaching me what he thought I was doing wrong was his priority.

So he'd say it was my mistake because I didn't keep my rhythm. That's what always started the argument. I tried to tell him I had done exactly as he instructed and danced only on the main beat (no traspie) and that's how I ended up on the foot I was on. I didn't end up on that foot by not keeping the rhythm; I ended up on it because he did one or three traspie bits and I didn't do them at all. Of course, it wasn't a problem when he did an even number of them or when I did them too. That made the problem inconsistent.

So we went round and round with it over time with him saying I'd end up on the same foot regardless of whether I did traspie or not, and me saying I'd end up on the opposite foot. Since it was an intermittent problem (and sometimes I did the traspie with him, making it even harder to troubleshoot) it took awhile before I sussed out the answer.

Which, as usual, was that neither of us was totally right or totally wrong.

 

[Zoopsia59]

The key to leading this is for me to be conscious that the "deep meaning" of this is not "no weightchange and then weightchange" but "really, really fast step-so fast that i don't have time (and don't give time to the follower) for a weightchange, and then drawing out the time till i land the second step like taffy so i am getting back on the base timing - the feeling is something like daTaaaa". I don't lead a "step without weightchange" but lead a step, and then interrupt it before she (and i) arrice at the new base - kinda like a boleo.

Gssh

Would you be able to lead her to do traspie when you don't, or to not do it when you do it?

The problem of doing traspie without her, is keeping yourself still enough in the upper body that she doesn't feel you putting it in.

 

[opendoor]

Watch Omar Vega below...

Thanks for posting. Always enjoy Vega. Some independent mind like him is missing in the tango machinery today!

 

[UKDancer]

Leading the habanera rhythm would be really difficult, I think. Learning to lead the traspie might be difficult, but once it was understood, a leader could get a decent follower who had never seen it before, to do it, IME.

I strongly disagree with the first point, but I agree with the latter one. Having a strong sense of rhythm helps, I guess, but that seems a prerequisite for dancing well (in any style) beyond the novice stage.

 

[UKDancer]

Thanks for posting. Always enjoy Vega. Some independent mind like him is missing in the tango machinery today!

The use of height changes seem central to his lead. You can move very quickly and change direction as often as you like, if your intention is crystal clear and if your partner is coming for the ride.

 

[LadyLeader]

Sorry but I am still on the basics here..
My ability to musically analyze the steps is not my strong side so only during the slowest milongas - Milonga sentimental - I can get an idea about what elements I am using in my dance.

I put the theory like this: Milongan has a two-beat rhythm, lying below the habanera rhythm. The first habanera-h comes together with the first beat and the third h occurs with the second beat.

h - - hh - h -
1- - - 2 - - -

To keep track for where I am on beats I found a sounding aid for habanera rhythm: Paam Pa Pam Pam (it sounds ok in most of the Nordic languages!) It carries the information about the long first part, the short one and the second beat with equally divided parts.

The only thing i have found in common for syncopation definitions have been that it is something different from the basic patterns - so 1,2 and all h are out of question then.
But if I take my step on one of the free spaces - am I out of music then?

 

[Gssh]

Actually, you don't agree with him. (because you focused on one word instead of what I was really saying about which foot you end up on when you do odd or even numbers of traspie sequences compared to not doing any traspie)

Perhaps "expect" isn't the best word, since he did say that if I ended up not where he intended, he could simply get out of it as you say, based on cross system.

In reality though, it is all very fast, and he usually didn't realize I was on the "wrong" foot and ended up kicking me before he realized where I was (and wasn't). Also, since he was trying to teach me something, getting out of it smoothly regardless of what I did wasn't his top priority.. teaching me what he thought I was doing wrong was his priority.

So he'd say it was my mistake because I didn't keep my rhythm. That's what always started the argument. I tried to tell him I had done exactly as he instructed and danced only on the main beat (no traspie) and that's how I ended up on the foot I was on. I didn't end up on that foot by not keeping the rhythm; I ended up on it because he did one or three traspie bits and I didn't do them at all. Of course, it wasn't a problem when he did an even number of them or when I did them too. That made the problem inconsistent.

Sorry - i did not get what you were actually saying - the problem that i was imagining (mainly because of my experiences) is related, but different.

I sounded to me like the situation where the follower does not do a traspie (in the second sense) with the leader, or does an even number where the leader marked an odd number, or feels "something happening" because the leader did a traspie as an ornament while marking single time, and then tries to "fix" things because they feel that they are not "where they are supposed to be". As a leader i can catch up with followers who are moving on the music/riffing off the music in a way i understand/not moving. I can't catch up with them if they move (from my perspective) erratically trying to catch up with me - milonga is too fast for that, and i am as bound by the rhythm as they are, limiting my options for just letting them catch up.

That situation is usually where i ask followers (especially in milonga) to just keep their rhythm, and let me try to catch up to them.

The missing piece is that he actually stepped on you -i.e. he had lost track of where you were. I revise what i said above, and completely disagree with him (and myself )

In what you describe you actually did keep your rhythm - it sounds like you (the couple) tried to debug this from the wrong angle (in general when i collide with my partner it is a problem with us not being on the same rhythm, so that is probably the first thing i would think of, too) - but the problem was that he did not feel when he moved in and out of the cross system. So how to debug this
1) He needs to mark the traspie better
2) He needs to become more sensitive to where you actually are
3) He can cheat by using an even number of trasies (which carries the risk that sometimes he might actually be successful in marking them)
4) He can cheat by using an exit out of his sequence of trasipies that is independend of which system the couple is actually in - like a giro, or where it is really easy to feel where the follower is - ochos are good for that - a back ocho feels very different from a sidestep.


Gssh

 

[Gssh]

But if I take my step on one of the free spaces - am I out of music then?

No, you are taking your rightful place as the percussion instrument in the orchestra .

Gssh

 

[AndaBien]

...
If this is the regular milonga step pattern:
x.....x.....x.....x or 1.....2.....3.....4
then just adding a step/doubletiming gives us this:
x..&..x.....x.....x or 1..&..2.....3.....4
which is NOT a traspie. a traspie is this:
x.&...x.....x.....x or 1.&...2.....3.....4
or
x&....x.....x.....x or 1&....2.....3.....4
it tends to be taught as a doubletime because it is easier to explain...

I agree that adding a step on the equally subdivided step (the & beat) does not create a syncopation. But neither does adding a step slightly before that equal subdivision.

Musical syncopation is created by putting an emphatic beat in an unexpected place. (It might be argued that dancers can't create syncopation at all, but can only dance to syncopation that the musicians provide). Anyway, if a dancer's syncopation is done with footwork, since they can't play notes, dancing on 1.2.3.4. and including other Q steps as well doesn't change the emphasis. A dancer would have to do it by dancing on 1..&3.4. - that is by not dancing where the beat is expected, but stepping elsewhere instead.

 

[AndaBien]

... place as the percussion instrument in the orchestra.

A piano is a percussion instrument. Even if it wasn't, any instrument can provide the rhythm of the music.

 

[Zoopsia59]

it sounds like you (the couple) tried to debug this from the wrong angle

Which is typical when one person assumes they are right and that the problem therefore must be that the other person is "wrong"

the problem was that he did not feel when he moved in and out of the cross system.

Well, the problem was that he didn't realize that he would be moving in and out of the cross system and was therefore not really paying attention. In his mind, if I just kept the rhythm and danced only the main beat (the "1", so to speak) then I would always end on the same foot that I would end on if I had done the traspie with him. This was the major flaw in his thinking, since would only be true sometimes (ie: with an even number of traspie's) He was already predisposed to assume I was off somehow, because he'd had so many students who just couldn't keep the rhythm. He was the teacher, so in his mind, if it didn't work, I must be doing something wrong.

So how to debug this
1) He needs to mark the traspie better
2) He needs to become more sensitive to where you actually are
3) He can cheat by using an even number of trasies (which carries the risk that sometimes he might actually be successful in marking them)
4) He can cheat by using an exit out of his sequence of trasipies that is independend of which system the couple is actually in - like a giro, or where it is really easy to feel where the follower is - ochos are good for that - a back ocho feels very different from a sidestep.

Or he could just blame me, which is his preferred solution

In all seriousness, he was a fabulous teacher. This was one of the very few times that he was off-base or in any way ignorant of how it all works, especially when it came to the rhythm and counting the music. He'd never had a student/partner with whom he could work on the advanced level of milonga that Omar was teaching at that time, so he hadn't really broken it down that well yet in his mind. When he simply led a traspie or two that I was to do with him, it was fine... it was when he tried adding much more for himself while I kept the basic rhythm (a la Omar sometimes) that it started falling apart.

He was trying to adopt some of Omar's more complicated moves into his own style and it was a challenge for both of us. For starters, Omar used an offset embrace, and that was the only way some of his extra moves could work. Other wise, the follower was in the way even if she was on the intended foot. Even if that hadn't added complications, the basic premise that he could do traspie style embellishing and I'd be on the same foot whether or not I had done traspie was simply a fallacy as indicated above.