NDCA Rule Rescinded: No more amateurs in Pro/am events
- Thread starter DanceMentor
- Start date
Tancos, don't know where you are currently folk dancing, or if you still are, but when I was heavy into the folk dance scene the politics were there. The Israeli dancers didn't dance International, the International dancers didn't understand the Polka only people, the Polka only people didn't do Contra dancing, and the Square Dancers were in a world of their own. Not really much different than Ballroom, just that the folk dancers didn't/don't have a forum to air their dirty laundry and so its not as evident.
Not a good comparison. I have no problem with self selection -- some dancers only do ballroom, some WCS, some Argentine tango, etc. My problem is with governing bodies deciding who can participate. For example, I don't know of any Israeli folk dance groups that try to limit participation. Yes, I still folk dance (a lot).
Hmm. I see your point, tancos.
I think that what's being said is that, where there are organized groups of people, there will almost always be politics. If someone in the folk dance communities were to create a governing body structure, I suspect we'd see something similar to what's going on in ballroom -- not necessarily fighting (although it's possible) but separation of genres, classification, restrictions, rules etc. I don't think that's about dance communities as much as it is about human nature.
My $0.02 only.
I think that what's being said is that, where there are organized groups of people, there will almost always be politics. If someone in the folk dance communities were to create a governing body structure, I suspect we'd see something similar to what's going on in ballroom -- not necessarily fighting (although it's possible) but separation of genres, classification, restrictions, rules etc. I don't think that's about dance communities as much as it is about human nature.
My $0.02 only.
danceronice
Forum Master
Hmm. I see your point, tancos.
I think that what's being said is that, where there are organized groups of people, there will almost always be politics. If someone in the folk dance communities were to create a governing body structure, I suspect we'd see something similar to what's going on in ballroom -- not necessarily fighting (although it's possible) but separation of genres, classification, restrictions, rules etc. I don't think that's about dance communities as much as it is about human nature.
My $0.02 only.
I've seen political squabbling from Cub Scouts to 4H to horses to dance to everyone I've ever worked for. There has to be a hierarchy to everything and where there's a pecking order, there will be squabbling.
ChaChaMama
Well-Known Member
While I agree with Daphna, 3wishes, DOI, etc that all recreational activities and professional organizations have politics and pecking orders, I would add that that does not all political systems are created equal. Sometimes some organizational introspection can lead to improvement in the way business is conducted.
-There are best practices for running organizations in terms of insuring that one's membership has opportunities to get their issues on the table and that those issues get discussion.
-There are best practices in terms of selecting/electing leadership, representatives, etc.
-There are best practices for diplomatic relations with other organizations.
It makes sense to periodically ask questions like "Does this structure best serve who we are today? Are there ways in which it could be improved? Are there alternatives we have not considered which might serve us better?"
Sometimes, in the ballroom world and elsewhere, questioning the status quo is perceived as an attack. It really is NOT. For example, let's say I want to ask the following: "How did that idea of requiring pro-am dancers to pay NDCA membership make its way through the process? Was there ample opportunity for dancers and competition organizers to air their opinions? If not, do we need a more democratic and open process that would allow for more dialogue?" That is not meant to be an attack. It is meant to be a constructive comment for the betterment of an organization to which I do in fact belong. (And yes, I'm aware that that particular policy was rescinded. Doesn't mean that looking at the process is a bad idea.)
Similarly, let's say I want to ask "How did USA Dance's strict camera policy makes it way through the process? Was there ample opportunity for dancers to air their opinions?" This is not an attack on the organization. I'm actually very fond of USA Dance. I would not have volunteered at Nationals if I didn't like the organization. Doesn't mean it is above getting constructive feedback from members.
I would like to think people can make constructive comments without being treated like the enemy or like whiners.
-There are best practices for running organizations in terms of insuring that one's membership has opportunities to get their issues on the table and that those issues get discussion.
-There are best practices in terms of selecting/electing leadership, representatives, etc.
-There are best practices for diplomatic relations with other organizations.
It makes sense to periodically ask questions like "Does this structure best serve who we are today? Are there ways in which it could be improved? Are there alternatives we have not considered which might serve us better?"
Sometimes, in the ballroom world and elsewhere, questioning the status quo is perceived as an attack. It really is NOT. For example, let's say I want to ask the following: "How did that idea of requiring pro-am dancers to pay NDCA membership make its way through the process? Was there ample opportunity for dancers and competition organizers to air their opinions? If not, do we need a more democratic and open process that would allow for more dialogue?" That is not meant to be an attack. It is meant to be a constructive comment for the betterment of an organization to which I do in fact belong. (And yes, I'm aware that that particular policy was rescinded. Doesn't mean that looking at the process is a bad idea.)
Similarly, let's say I want to ask "How did USA Dance's strict camera policy makes it way through the process? Was there ample opportunity for dancers to air their opinions?" This is not an attack on the organization. I'm actually very fond of USA Dance. I would not have volunteered at Nationals if I didn't like the organization. Doesn't mean it is above getting constructive feedback from members.
I would like to think people can make constructive comments without being treated like the enemy or like whiners.
fascination
Site Moderator
excellent post
superbimmer
Member
Hi ... I have been a "lurker" for several years, as other priorities have imposed themselves on me. I have more time now, and this topic, and the one on NDCA/USADance, has really caught my attention.
First, to Tancos ... I also have an extensive folkdance background. There is a big difference, between folk and ballroom ... there are no ballrooms that specialize in teaching folk, and certainly no Pro-Am component. The money is completely different ... so folkdance is definitley more affordable, in general. Everything from weekly dances, to conventions and camps, are much less expensive. Probably because almost no one actually tries to make their entire living through folkdance. But ballroom ... another animal, especially in the world of Pro-Am.
To the topic, in general ... when money, and earning a living, becomes a key factor, the entire dynamic changes. There are too many people with a vested interest in how the system works. Some want to maintain the status quo ... others want to press for change, so there is more inclusion.
In any case ... it is always sad when these things get tense, but it would be difficult to avoid completely. Look at the NBA and NFL ... when it comes to money, you'll never have smooth sailing.
First, to Tancos ... I also have an extensive folkdance background. There is a big difference, between folk and ballroom ... there are no ballrooms that specialize in teaching folk, and certainly no Pro-Am component. The money is completely different ... so folkdance is definitley more affordable, in general. Everything from weekly dances, to conventions and camps, are much less expensive. Probably because almost no one actually tries to make their entire living through folkdance. But ballroom ... another animal, especially in the world of Pro-Am.
To the topic, in general ... when money, and earning a living, becomes a key factor, the entire dynamic changes. There are too many people with a vested interest in how the system works. Some want to maintain the status quo ... others want to press for change, so there is more inclusion.
In any case ... it is always sad when these things get tense, but it would be difficult to avoid completely. Look at the NBA and NFL ... when it comes to money, you'll never have smooth sailing.
foxtrotboy
New Member
From USA Dance:
ATTENTION: USA DANCE DANCESPORT ATHLETES
Important Change to the NDCA Rule Allowing Amateur Athletes
Opportunity to Dance as Professional Partner of an
Amateur Competitor at NDCA Pro-Am Competitions
In January of this year the NDCA passed a new rule allowing Amateur Athletes to dance as the Professional Partner in an NDCA Pro-AM Competition, without any change of the Amateur 's Competitive Status. USA Dance agreed to comply with this new NDCA ruling for a grace-period to give the USA Dance DanceSport Council (DSC) an opportunity to revise the USA Dance Rulebook in the August meeting of the DSC. We were mindful of the new ruling, but also skeptical that the new rule would sustain.
Subsequently, the new rule was overturned at the June 2011 NDCA meeting. This means Amateur Athletes are NO LONGER permitted to dance as the professional partner of a pro-am partnership, at NDCA-sanctioned events, and still retain their Amateur Competitive Status. The definition and conditions of becoming a Professional Competitor in the USA Dance Rulebook are in full force - the "grace period" has ended.
USA Dance does recognize that as of this writing the new NDCA Rulebook has not been posted for download - hence they are still operating under the rules of January 2011. Therefore, some NDCA organizers may still be allowing amateurs to dance as professional partners and may have indicated such on entry forms previously distributed. If you have already entered such a competition, due to the timing complications, you can submit copies of the entry form to the USA Dance DSC to request a special one-time waiver to retain your Amateur Competitive Status.
Regards,
Ken Richards
DanceSport Vice President
USA Dance Inc.
ATTENTION: USA DANCE DANCESPORT ATHLETES
Important Change to the NDCA Rule Allowing Amateur Athletes
Opportunity to Dance as Professional Partner of an
Amateur Competitor at NDCA Pro-Am Competitions
In January of this year the NDCA passed a new rule allowing Amateur Athletes to dance as the Professional Partner in an NDCA Pro-AM Competition, without any change of the Amateur 's Competitive Status. USA Dance agreed to comply with this new NDCA ruling for a grace-period to give the USA Dance DanceSport Council (DSC) an opportunity to revise the USA Dance Rulebook in the August meeting of the DSC. We were mindful of the new ruling, but also skeptical that the new rule would sustain.
Subsequently, the new rule was overturned at the June 2011 NDCA meeting. This means Amateur Athletes are NO LONGER permitted to dance as the professional partner of a pro-am partnership, at NDCA-sanctioned events, and still retain their Amateur Competitive Status. The definition and conditions of becoming a Professional Competitor in the USA Dance Rulebook are in full force - the "grace period" has ended.
USA Dance does recognize that as of this writing the new NDCA Rulebook has not been posted for download - hence they are still operating under the rules of January 2011. Therefore, some NDCA organizers may still be allowing amateurs to dance as professional partners and may have indicated such on entry forms previously distributed. If you have already entered such a competition, due to the timing complications, you can submit copies of the entry form to the USA Dance DSC to request a special one-time waiver to retain your Amateur Competitive Status.
Regards,
Ken Richards
DanceSport Vice President
USA Dance Inc.
thedancingdiva
New Member
Just spoke to the NDCA and they are stating that Amatuers still have the option to compete with there students in pro/am events until January. The "grace period" has not ended. Please contact the NDCA if anyone has any questions about this.
foxtrotboy
New Member
However, the grace period referenced in the notice from USAD refers to the USAD grace period which *has* ended. So, yes, you can still dance both Pro/Am and Amateur at an NDCA competition, but if you dance Pro/Am (as the Pro) you cannot dance Amateur at a USA Dance competition.
That is my interpretation as well:
USA Dance does recognize that as of this writing the new NDCA Rulebook has not been posted for download - hence they are still operating under the rules of January 2011. Therefore, some NDCA organizers may still be allowing amateurs to dance as professional partners and may have indicated such on entry forms previously distributed. If you have already entered such a competition, due to the timing complications, you can submit copies of the entry form to the USA Dance DSC to request a special one-time waiver to retain your Amateur Competitive Status.
USA Dance does recognize that as of this writing the new NDCA Rulebook has not been posted for download - hence they are still operating under the rules of January 2011. Therefore, some NDCA organizers may still be allowing amateurs to dance as professional partners and may have indicated such on entry forms previously distributed. If you have already entered such a competition, due to the timing complications, you can submit copies of the entry form to the USA Dance DSC to request a special one-time waiver to retain your Amateur Competitive Status.
White Chacha
Active Member
This is a great summary. Still one has to wonder how, in the first place, NDCA could have been so out of touch with the membership to implement the "amateur teachers may compete with students as proam couple" rule. I don't think any of the pros I'm in contact with were in favor of this.
I think your point about doing best practices, which includes continuously reading the pulse of your membership regarding a range of current issues, is key.
TinyDancer109
Well-Known Member
maybe the "representatives" should actually represent...
i.e. hold teleconferences for member of NDCA who might wish to speak their mind on a particular point BEFORE they vote on it.
For example, pro reps could hold teleconferences where pros from across the country can participate if they so wish, and issues that will be voted on by at the next meeting can be addressed. Or even just sending out a notice to the pros so that they can speak their mind of their preference via letter or email or telephone call.
Bailamosdance
Forum Master
The NDCA board was trying to do the right thing, and they were rebuked by a membership that only saw a threat of new blood on the dance floor and competition for their income. The change of rules preventing more people competing, more people adding revenue to competitions, and taking Am teachers out of the revenue stream in the USA will have a lot of negative repercussions in the dance world, not only financially but also in the way that these qualified Am teachers relate to the dance world in the USA.
Comps will lose out on a lot of revenue from these ProAm couples; studios will lose out on revenue when the studio shares revenue from ProAm event fees; Am teachers will probably start looking at overseas events like the ProAm events starting up.
The NDCA board is charged with representing their members, the reps are not to simply parrot their constituents blindly but to actually GOVERN and be visionary. I think the lack of vision of the Pros who feel a threat to their self esteem and pocketbooks will eventually hurt them, IMHO
Comps will lose out on a lot of revenue from these ProAm couples; studios will lose out on revenue when the studio shares revenue from ProAm event fees; Am teachers will probably start looking at overseas events like the ProAm events starting up.
The NDCA board is charged with representing their members, the reps are not to simply parrot their constituents blindly but to actually GOVERN and be visionary. I think the lack of vision of the Pros who feel a threat to their self esteem and pocketbooks will eventually hurt them, IMHO