Teaching Musicality

[JohnEm]

Yes. That's how I dance and it's what I teach. I do all those things AND I let my dance be informed by the music. I don't consider it too mental or at all problematic. I do consider it a degree of musicality.

Well I'm pleased to see that. But it's not what you wrote because a dance
like this has no need to fit patterns to music. This lack of pattern/step
matching requirement, because the dance can instantly respond to the
music,your partner and the floor, eliminates the mental effort transforming
it into an intuitive one.

 

[Steve Pastor]

And...
I learned all of that here in Portland from Steven Payne along with other teachers here such as Alex Krebs, Megan Pingree, Bill Alsup, and Robert Hauk. Traveling Argentines such as Cahco Dante and Susanna Miller had an influence, as did Christopher Nasapolous and Christina Peatty from the Bay Area (I think).

Portland has had a reputation for "close embrace" for quite some time.

 

[dchester]

There are no absolutes - how can I explain any better that it is as much
about the approach as it is about the execution. There are no thoughts
about step numbers or walking to the cross or a rock step series although
all those may or may not be part of the dance. Asking such questions
is the wrong mindset.

It is literally that a cross is done on the spur of the moment or cross feet
walking or whatever - there is nothing preplanned - the only consciousness
is in the moment.

The answer could be much more clear cut if your dance amounts to the
lady "owning" her own giro or if she overturns ochos, or if you have been
encouraged to allow the woman space and freedom to do so. Mine is none
of that. If you think a giro is eight beats, or some fixed number of beats
or has some quicks in it, and that once started it has to be completed,
it isn't that either.

I was really just trying to understand more about your usage of Choreographed, since it is so different from how I use it. You defined it by taking about a "bit" which I was also trying to learn what you really meant by it.

Sometimes when you post, much of what you say doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I believe it's mostly to due terminology differences (which, I'm trying to understand better, so I can figure out how to translate your comments into something that makes sense to me). Example: we were arguing about whether there was "choreography" occurring, when (I think) the "essence" of what we were all trying to say was in general agreement. It turned out that we just have different opinions on what choreography means.

To address a few of your other statements. I don't use step numbers when dancing. Actually, I'm not even sure what step numbers are, except for in the 8CB, which to me is nothing more than a teaching drill.

To me, a giro doesn't have a predetermined number of steps, as it can start or end anywhere in the sequence (same for ochos, BTW). Once the giro starts, there is a sequence however, so I was trying to figure out if that then fell into what you call choreography.

Can you change travelling backward ochos to forward ones and maybe
back again? Can you change those into giros of either direction and return
to them etc., etc. Can you halt the cross, in the cross, rebound the cross,
halt and/or rebound the giro at virtually any point or walk out of it any
point whether into the cross feet or parallel. If you have been taught that
there are only certain limited ways to exit a giro you are locked into a
pattern and a timing. Such teachings and habits are difficult to break.

Can you dance a rotating dance such that you can dance on the spot
yet give the lady an interesting dance to the music? And move gently
forward when the ronda allows. That's what you see at Lo de Celia.
Never seen it taught yet abroad, even by Argentines although I did pick
up some technique clues from one but he never taught a continuously
rotating anti-clockwise close embrace giro.

Basically, any step can come after any other step (if you know how to lead it). I come out of giros in several different ways, just like I start them in different ways. That's how I was taught. Do I do every step combination that you, (or anyone else for that matter) does? Not likely. I try to learn about as many possibilities as I can, then I incorporate what I like into my dance. I've never felt the need to do everything that anyone else does, but if I see something I like, then I'll try to incorporate it.

Can I successfully dance at Lo de Celia? I guess I won't know until I go there, possibly next summer (winter for BsAs). I've danced at other milongas in BsAs, though.

At the moment, I'm more concerned about how to improve on the things I have (and like) to do here, since that's were I live. I dance with the woman, to the music, in the environment. If any of those change, then I change as well.

 

[JohnEm]

Can I successfully dance at Lo de Celia? I guess I won't know until I go there, possibly next summer (winter for BsAs). I've danced at other milongas in BsAs, though.

At the moment, I'm more concerned about how to improve on the things I have (and like) to do here, since that's were I live. I dance with the woman, to the music, in the environment. If any of those change, then I change as well.

Based on what you say it turns out we don't actually disagree that much.

Dancing at Lo de Celia for long enough to experience and adapt to the
conditions will change your dance. Dance on expansive and uncrowded
floors results in expansive dancing. Dancing on smaller and crowded floors
and keeping dancing shrinks your dance until instead of thinking of
moving/travelling forward you walk into the floor as way of transmitting
your timing between each other, conveying the dance and marking the
rhythm. Landing the foot solidly becomes important or the dance becomes
too tentative. It's something I saw after jantango videoed me the first
night I was there.

You end up keeping your feet mainly under you and your weight over them
and the dance subtly changes. Almost impossible to explain - you have
to feel it. Steve Pastor commented about making things smaller recently
based on his own observations. Once you can shrink it and maintain a
feeling you can expand again at home if you wish but your dance will
have changed. Hope this makes sense, difficult to write about a feeling.

And now, I'm off out for the evening at a milonga! A very traditional one
where once Ricardo Vidort danced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrl8VjDceG0

 

[AndaBien]

...a dance like this has no need to fit patterns to music...

I agree, there is no need.

...This lack of pattern/step
matching requirement, because the dance can instantly respond to the music, your partner and the floor, eliminates the mental effort transforming it into an intuitive one.

I can't quite grasp clearly what you are saying here, and I would like to, but I'm focusing on the bold part. For me, it isn't mental effort. It's an additional layer of pleasure. If I can help other dancers to find more pleasure in their dance, I think that's a good thing. If they don't think there is a need, that's fine.

 

[dchester]

...This lack of pattern/step
matching requirement, because the dance can instantly respond to the music, your partner and the floor, eliminates the mental effort transforming it into an intuitive one.

I can't quite grasp clearly what you are saying here, and I would like to, but I'm focusing on the bold part. For me, it isn't mental effort. It's an additional layer of pleasure. If I can help other dancers to find more pleasure in their dance, I think that's a good thing. If they don't think there is a need, that's fine.

For me, that translates into, he's evolved to the point where he's doing it with his subconscious mind, rather than his conscious mind (i.e. Stage 4 of Maslow's theory that I referenced in a prior post, Unconscious Competence).

Basically, anything we do really well (without having to think about it), is being handled by the subconscious mind. Thus, from his perspective, he's eliminated the mental effort. You've likely accomplished the same, as you're not experiencing any mental effort either, but rather, pleasure.

For beginning leaders, they are experiencing a lot of mental effort. At least I was, when I started out. The less thinking the leader has to do, the better. However, saying this is much easier than getting to that point. That's where various teaching methods can help (even if they don't get the person all the way). First understand it consciously, and with practice it will more quickly get into your subconscious.

 

[AndaBien]

...
Basically, anything we do really well (without having to think about it), is being handled by the subconscious mind...

I'm not sure if I would call it that, or not, since "subconscious" has always had a vague meaning to me. But, if we use your definition, I could go with that. I would say that I'm aware of what I'm doing and that it's effortless, second nature.

I might compare it to learning how to enjoy the fragrance of wine (which I had to do, and it's still an effort), as well as the flavor. For enologists, it's just enjoyment.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I haven't reviewed the neuroscience for a while (anyone else read "Guitar Zero" lately?), but things are actually handled by a different part of the brain after it has been practiced enough. Neural pathways become strengthened, etc. That area of the brain is in the "older" part back down and away from the front and top part of the brain. But be sure to look it up before repeating this if you mention my name!

 

[AndaBien]

...But be sure to look it up before repeating this if you mention my name!

Well here's what Steve said...
No, I couldn't say that.

I'm thinking about developing a seminar on musicality. This thread has helped me clarify my thinking and to understand where terms and explanations can be vague or misleading.

 

[Steve Pastor]

where terms and explanations can be vague or misleading

...which seems to be most of the time.

I think looking at Skippy Blair's ideas on, for instance the Universal Unit System, moving from your Center, Quicks & Slows versus Count & Dance Rhythms, are worth looking at.

When JohnEm wrote "Landing the foot solidly becomes important or the dance becomes too tentative." really struck a chord in me, and Skippy is a strong advocate for what I guess I would call a non tenative approach to movement.

I admit, though, that I haven't had time to see what can be applied to "our" concept of AT. It's kind of funny because one of the women in the first Blair intensive I attended sugggested to me that I not mention AT so much, so I don't have much hope of enlisting Skippy in any sustained analysis.

 

[sixela]

Hi sixla, you know I´ve got a problem with GA music. So I am interested in what makes it that important for you. Before the GA hype such a highly developed and refined music (de Caro and the european influenced guardia nueva school of tango) already was played and makes it difficult to find GA music in generally that outstanding.

I take "GA" in this sense much less narrowly than you do, that's all.

 

[Mad Tango Scientist]

My dance is a dance of two bodies dancing as one. Almost any movement
can be stopped, rebounded, repeated etc. Once dancing there is no start
and there is no conscious end until you stop. The dance is seamless. Can
you halt your partner at any moment to match the music or cope with
an unexpected intrusion to the ronda? Can you dance sideways?

Can you change travelling backward ochos to forward ones and maybe
back again? Can you change those into giros of either direction and return
to them etc., etc. Can you halt the cross, in the cross, rebound the cross,
halt and/or rebound the giro at virtually any point or walk out of it any
point whether into the cross feet or parallel....

This was similar to how I danced for several years (I also love right side crosses and back crosses, but not many follows can do them), but humans grow, change and evolve, so my dance has expanded into new variables, like distance from partner and amount of V. Also, about two years ago after learning to follow myself, I started experimenting with giving the follow opportunities to do her own thing in her own way. Now, with another good partner, male or female, I can go back and forth between leading and following or give or take just a piece of the lead or follow as it can flow just as easily and smoothly as a step now and the line between leading and follow has blurred for me. I love all things Argentine Tango and I want to know it all and express it all and it has lead me to new possibilities.

Also though, I dance in the moment and have been against patterns since near the beginning of my dancing, effortlessly, my mind is starting to feel possibilities almost in the same way that my mind can see pieces of conversation before I say them, and can effortlessly adjust them to convey something closer to what I am feeling in the dance so that each partner can feel what I am trying to tell her. It feels as if I can communicate almost any emotion to her or even question her within the dance and receive answers. I think that dancing in the moment will eventually get almost anyone to this stage of being able to converse within the dance.

 

[JohnEm]

To address a few of your other statements. I don't use step numbers when dancing. Actually, I'm not even sure what step numbers are, except for in the 8CB, which to me is nothing more than a teaching drill.

We have discussed the 8CB countless times. Though I appreciate your
point of view I don't see it being helpful at all to learning or improving
each partner's skill because the routine is known and rehearsed.

To me, a giro doesn't have a predetermined number of steps, as it can start or end anywhere in the sequence (same for ochos, BTW). Once the giro starts, there is a sequence however, so I was trying to figure out if that then fell into what you call choreography.

You describe it as a sequence. Call it what you will, choreography will do,
but you are dancing it as a set pattern and so is your partner. I dance it
step by step lead from the chest joined to my partner's chest. She can feel
where leg needs to go because her body/balance/senses tell her. The best
partners are often those who have never learned the giro from teacher. All
they need to accept is that, unlike normality in normal life, their legs can
be crossed in front or behind. Everything else flows from the dance.

Basically, any step can come after any other step (if you know how to lead it). I come out of giros in several different ways, just like I start them in different ways. That's how I was taught. Do I do every step combination that you, (or anyone else for that matter) does? Not likely. I try to learn about as many possibilities as I can, then I incorporate what I like into my dance. I've never felt the need to do everything that anyone else does, but if I see something I like, then I'll try to incorporate it.

I accept that your intent is good but talking about combinations generally
means you are thinking sequences. I too have watched much video and
dancing and we all get inspired by the dancing of others. But I tend to
think of trying a particular movement rather than a combination.

Let me ask a question.
When practising (or learning) do you rehearse your feet?
In other words in order to perform a particular figure (for that is what you
seem to do) do you have a figure or pattern for your feet or a particular
foot position preparation? Over to you.

Can I successfully dance at Lo de Celia? I guess I won't know until I go there, possibly next summer (winter for BsAs). I've danced at other milongas in BsAs, though.

Perhaps we will meet at some time.
Milongas vary day to day, even through one afternoon/evening, even
Celia's though perhaps less than most. Nuevo Chique at its busiest can
be somewhat similar to Lo de Celia but as the evening progresses and
the floor becomes less crowded the elegantly more flamboyant dancers
can emerge. If there's a performance (it was infrequent) the style of the
performance influences the dancing after it.

 

[dchester]

I'm not sure if I would call it that, or not, since "subconscious" has always had a vague meaning to me.

An example of the "subconscious" handling something, would be walking down the street. I suspect you don't spend much time thinking about where to place your foot or how to do it, when walking down the street. You might be thinking about a song, how good you feel today, what happened at work, or many other things, but you don't need to "consciously" think about walking, as it's normally handled subconsciously.

It's nothing more than that (at least with respect to this conversation).

 

[AndaBien]

An example of the "subconscious" handling something, would be walking down the street. I suspect you don't spend much time thinking about where to place your foot or how to do it, when walking down the street. You might be thinking about a song, how good you feel today, what happened at work, or many other things, but you don't need to "consciously" think about walking, as it's normally handled subconsciously.

It's nothing more than that (at least with respect to this conversation).

There are both similarities and differences. I may walk absent-mindedly, but I hope I never dance that way. When I do a giro to the left, in a sense my footwork is automatic (subconscious?), but I'm also paying full attention to my and my partners movements and rhythms.