Texas Tommy Swing

[Black Sheep]

Re: Authenticity

Swing Kitten,
How many times has your admired esteemed friend rained on my parade, mis quoted me, distorted my COMMENTARIES and just recently incorrectly stated I was WRONG about the Mashed Potatoes?
I notice FunkyFreak and you are ardent supporters of the smoke screens your esteemed moderator throws up.
I asked for a simple description of the TTS to decide for myself. I have read too many books to know that authors have their own agenda's. I am not WRONG as you suggest. I want to see the description on this post, just like I gave detailed descriptions of my MAGIC PILL. I did not tell people to buy my 'Lindy by Lanza' book which describes the Magic Pill teaching method. It takes me about thirty minutes to write these Commentaries. That is all the discretionary time I have for these repartees.
Black Sheep 'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

 

[SDsalsaguy]

Even if you can't admit you were wrong about this, can you at least drop it?

Obviously that's too much to ask Swing Kitten.

Black Sheep 'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza

Couldn't agree more with this most recent tag line Joe...which is why no one here is willing to believe your version just because you tell us we should. d'nice has provided numerous references to independently published works. If you don't want to take the time to track them down in a local library that's fine...and your business. But to then come back here and claim he hasn't provided evidence is nothing more then a blatant avoidance of reality.

Why are we wasting so much precious time and reading space about...

Hypocritical much here Joe? You're the only one who seems to think this thread is a waste but, low and behold, guess who keeps posting away...

 

[d nice]

Re: Rip Up Sequence

VERIFICATION: I WROTE the only book describing those novelty dances of the 1960's, starting with the Twist and including a clear description of the Mashed Potatoes...


Black Sheep 'History is often written by the WRONG people' Joe Lanza 2003

*snicker*

 

[d nice]

Re: Rip Up Sequence

And D'nice, you are the one who is WRONG when you stated the Mash Potatoes included the Charleston Kick. I taught the Mashed Potatoes to 49 Jr. high schools in the L. A. Unified School District from 1959 to 1963 when the Mashed Potatoes originated. You may do the Charleston Kick NOW as the Mashed Potatoes, but we NEVER did it in the original form.

Wow, you told me Joe. I guess I can ignore the words of the dancers from the era who did both dances. I guess I can ignore the Labanotation models cronstructed and the resulting studies concerning the Charleston and the Mashed Potatos by kinesiologists, ethno-musicologists and dance historians.

Because you wrote a book, which you published yourself, and was then quoted by someone else. That is so obviousely better than my sources.

Actually I guess I'm just not that intelligent, but could you tell us who invented the mashed potato? Where it came from? When it was first danced? When it was first taught in dance studios?

Thanks.

Actually since we have wandered on to a tangent for a second, Let me clarify something from my previous post... it is the Charleston that is descendant of an African dance step, the Mashed Potato and the Kick Step that are descendants of it. Do you even know the Kick Step? When it was danced, who popularized it? What was the first film it could be seen in?

 

[Swing Kitten]

Re: Authenticity

Swing Kitten,
How many times has your admired esteemed friend rained on my parade, mis quoted me, distorted my COMMENTARIES and just recently incorrectly stated I was WRONG about the Mashed Potatoes?

I have yet to see him mis quote you-- maybe misinterperate... which in this medium, anyone could do (and in those instances he was not the only person to do so)-- but never mis quote. And the last I checked it's not wrong to disagree... even if it means raining on your parade.

I notice FunkyFreak and you are ardent supporters of the smoke screens your esteemed moderator throws up.

How often are 'smoke screens' supported with more proof than what they are hiding? If D nice said something that I did not agree with or that I knew or highly suspected to be false I would not back him up on that! I have my own brain thank you! Yes, d nice has my trust... and do you know why? He's EARNED it! He has earned it by being consistantly knowledgeable and professional. He provides sources (this we know) and demonstrates logic in his thinking.

I have read too many books to know that authors have their own agenda's.

Interesting... is that you have read too many books or is that you have written too many books to know that authors have their own agenda?

I am not WRONG as you suggest.

I wouldn't expect you to agree that you are wrong-- it is clear that you do not think so.

I did not tell people to buy my 'Lindy by Lanza' book which describes the Magic Pill teaching method.

Could someone buy this book even if they wanted to? I just searched amazon.com with no results.

'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[SwinginBoo]

You go girl!

 

[Black Sheep]

TTS SPOOF

TTS Believers,
When someone offers 2 film clips supposedly produced in 1910 where sound and color are missing as proof of a dance...give me a break!
I just want substantial evidence that holds up in the real world.
Now let me share with you the REAL origin of Swing Dancing:
Most dances, the Samba, Tango, and Nonna Peppa's Tarantella, started among the peasants, the economically improvised segments of society.
And the Lindy's origin was no different; it was started in New Orleans as a Funeral Processional March. Negro's were hired to escort the funeral procession to the grave yards playing their music, and of course the music was the original jazz. It was just natural for those New Orleans processional marchers, who were paid to accompany the funeral processions, to throw in some fancey syncopated footwork while marching to the music.
Eventually they embellished their dance moves and created the Lindy which was transported to New York along with the New Orleans Jazz Music and ended up in the Savoy Ballroom where it was honed into the form that Frankie dances.
Now you have Frankie Manning who is old enough to one way or another corroborate this New Orleans origin or not.
However, it is possible that from New Orleans the Texas Tommy was also transported to San Francisco.
I do not doubt there was a dance called the Texas Tommy Swing, but IF this TTS is what yo all's saying it is, then it must have come from the Motherland of Jazz, New Orleans! That's logic, that makes sense! That's a hell of a lot more acceptable of a scenario as the origin of Lindy, than those 2 Black & White Film Clips WITHOUT SOUND! How did anybody ever manage to count to 8 without sound? Two 1910 film clips...in Black and White...with no sound! No wonder Arnold got elected!
Black Sheep 'People often believe without Questioning' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

 

[HepcatBob]

Unfortunately, Joe, it's impossible to provide a film clip from 1910 with either sound or color. Neither had been invented at that point in time. Personally, I would like to see actual proof that the Lindy DID start in New Orleans as you just claimed. Can you provide such proof?

 

[d nice]

Joe... provide me with some evidence citing N.O. as the birth place of lindy hop.

While you are at it... why not provide counter evidence to Stoddard's claims about the birthplace of jazz. Give me some locations, some band names, some locations, dates.

 

[Swing Kitten]

Unfortunately, Joe, it's impossible to provide a film clip from 1910 with either sound or color. Neither had been invented at that point in time. Personally, I would like to see actual proof that the Lindy DID start in New Orleans as you just claimed. Can you provide such proof?

In Technicolor please!

 

[HepcatBob]

In Technicolor please!

And Quadrophonic Surround Sound!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Guest]

Re: TTS SPOOF

That's a hell of a lot more acceptable of a scenario as the origin of Lindy, than those 2 Black & White Film Clips WITHOUT SOUND!

You're right, Joe.

You can't recreate and know what a dance is completely just from two clips of video.

That's why it's suggested you pick up the books above, to help start getting a real detailed understanding at a dance, for which you need to also look at a dance's roots.

-FF

 

[simon]

Dear Black Sheep,

Well what a relief you are no longer saying the Texas Tommy Swing I referred to was a square dance done by a red neck from Texas in 1906.

Thank you for the references to Don't Knock the Rock and the brilliant dance footage in it.

To all,

As you are all aware (with one possible exception), the circa 1910 silent films of black American Texas Tommy dancers doing Texas Tommy (including leading practitioners of the dance at that time I think) are not the only evidence of Texas Tommy. They are not Richard's only source for recreating Texas Tommy, and are not, I gather, the only old film footage of Texas Tommy he will show.

I find being able to see and learn Texas Tommy Swing very exciting.

As mentioned, the webpage for the November 7-8-9 swing history weekend can be found at the dancing.org website - http://www.dancing.org/w/

Best regards,
Simon

 

[Black Sheep]

N. O. Proof

TTS Buffs,
I hope you noticed I gave you a way out when I said," However, it's possible that the Lindy was ALSO transported to San Francisco at the same time from N. O. when it was carried to New York from New Orleans!"
I do not purport to be an historian, but it was general knowledge in the 1940's and 1950's that the Lindy originated as I stated it in my previous post.
As for proof! I'll stick my neck out by suggesting you ask the following dancers, with whom I pledge that I have never discussed this subject with. 'Ask Frankie, ask Irene Thomas, ask Jean Phelps Veloz, ask Terry Monaghan, or ask any old-timer who was actively Swing dancing in the 1940's!
We were chronologically closer to the historical facts in 1940's then those researching the subject 50 years later. And many Primary Source individuals were still alive in the 1940's to corroborate that scenario.
I don't like to bust any balloons, but by sticking to that TTS story, you are headed for a feast on humble pie.
However, I will concede to you on one important point:
If this TTS shows some significant relationship to the Savoy Lindy, then we may have a missing 'Evolutionary Link' between the original N.O. dance and the Savoy Lindy through the TTS, and then you do not need the 2 film clips to prove your point that TTS superceded the Savoy Lindy. But, and this is a BIG 'but', the TTS did NOT originate the Lindy, but merely played a transitional role from the mother lode, N. O. onto S. F. and ending up in the N.Y. C. Savoy Ballroom. That's your possible Theory of Evolution that you can hang your historian pride on. But who believes in 'Evolution' any more anyway?
TTS, transitional, Si! TTS, original? Nada!
Black Sheep ' When playing Poker, look out for the Joker!' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

 

[d nice]

Joe how do you trace Lindy Hop to solo jazz dancing in N.O.? Where is the partnering aspect brought in?

If you want to take the route that all dance is a matter of evolution then the birth place of the Lindy Hop is Africa.

As to asking dancers from the time period... well Ethel Williams danced both, was the the lead follow that introduced the dance to New York, she is the one who first led Marshal Stearns to the history of the Texas Tommy. If you had read the resources I cited and done some independant research you'd know this already.