Toe leads for every step for the man?

[Zoopsia59]

It isn't a "rule", there are no "rules",

When a poster says that it should always be done as he describes, it implies a "rule". Since it was what HE said and not what YOU said, and I replied to HIM, I don't see a reason to debate whether or not he meant it as such with you. If he wants to chime in that he does or doesn't consider it a rule, then that's different.

Yours seems to be a smooth flat
and possibly rhythm-less feeling dance.

I assure you it is not rhythmless. It is smooth. I'm not really sure what you mean by "flat". If you mean no variations in height, that's not really up to me. If my partner goes up and down, so do I. If he doesn't lead that way, then, I'm not dancing that way.

And that removes all the characteristic feel of the dance.

Oh well... So much for me then...

 

[LKSO]

Yes, what I said was in close embrace. I cannot walk the way I described comfortably in open embrace due to mechanical and balance issues nor would I expect the woman to walk that way in open embrace.

The music must be mentioned: I generally prefer the sharper rhythmic accents of the 30s and 40s to the smoother sound of the 50s and 60s. The sharper rhythm requires stepping into the floor, sometimes almost 'stamping' to the rhythm of the piano or 'jabbing' to the rhythm of the bandoneon. I am responding to the instruments because it compels me to step that way and I expect that the partner I am dancing with also feels the difference as well as hearing it.

Just as the man should step, a woman, too, should step in the way that is most musically representative, not simply to soften to knee with each step. Softening the step upon floor contact makes for a floating feeling, which may be musically representative some of the time during a song/piece, but most of the time, it isn't.

 

[Zoopsia59]

A straight leg is not a locked leg but has a flexed knee.

I don't think this would ever be clear by using the term "straight leg" especially for anyone coming from other dance forms where straight means no bend in the knee. To expect readers to know that "straight" means "not straight" is asking a little much. (and you never know who might be readon and what their experience level /background might be... If I were a beginner and I read "straight", I would never assume it meant "flexed")

I'm also not totally convinced that it is what the LSKO meant by "straight" even though it may be what YOU mean by straight.

One of the reasons I prefer the term "soft knee" is because "bent", "straight", "flexed" and other such adjectives give impressions of meaning "Locked" or "noticeably bent" (Plie'). A soft knee is one that maintains a comfortable amount of bend and absorption. It is not forced into a deep bend for no reason, nor does it lock or hyper-extend when it is straightened.

In other words.. a NATURAL use of the knee in movement.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I generally prefer the sharper rhythmic accents of the 30s and 40s to the smoother sound of the 50s and 60s.

The sharper rhythm requires stepping into the floor, sometimes almost 'stamping' to the rhythm of the piano or 'jabbing' to the rhythm of the bandoneon.

I can understand this impulse for that specific kind of music, but as a middle-aged+ woman with various foot and joint problems, I'm not going to put extra pressure on my feet, metatarsals, and toes by doing any "stamping" or "jabbing", especially in high heels. Preventing excess impact has become rather important. However, I assure you that you'd still be able to feel where I am, and I could match your general feeling in the music without risking pain.

Of course, there's always the possibility that I wouldn't enjoy dancing with you if I felt a constant need to use extra amounts of heavy downward pressure. You may not like dancing with me if I can't stomp.

That doesn't make your way "right" and mine "wrong". It means you have a preference for a specific musical and dancing style that may not mesh with mine. My quibble is that your way of writing implies that what you are saying is universal and should be universally applied. You clearly didn't mean it that way, but it reads that way.

Softening the step upon floor contact makes for a floating feeling, which may be musically representative some of the time during a song/piece, but most of the time, it isn't.

(my bold)

And here's an example of what I meant...

I assume when you say "most of the time it isn't", you mean that it isn't for the songs you prefer to dance. But it doesn't read that way... it reads that your style is more representative of the music most of the time in general, all night, everywhere, and as such should be how everyone dances most of the time.

For the sum total of songs that get played (at least around here) I'd say that smooth is represented musically far more than "stamping" (marching). I think my partner is one of the few die hard D'Arienzo fans here. So "most of the time" softening IS representative of the music played.

Unless we are counting milongas. Milongas often have a more "up and down" stomping feeling to them and many people here dance them that way. Rhythm becomes more important than melody. Then they change to a smooth style for tangos, waltzes, and especially alternative music where melody gets more focus.

 

[LKSO]

Note that I said "sometimes almost 'stamping'". For most music, the general character is best matched with walking, not stamping or jabbing. But there is usually a lot of variety in just one song/piece. Thus, the manner of walk should change to match the changing character.

An example that requires jabbing:
Pugliese, La Yumba. Just the introduction requires jabbing, then it transitions into a softer section.

An example of light steps:
Pugliese, Desde el Alma. This is a waltz and the general character is very light, flowing, and sweet. It would best be matched with steps that are taken softly and lightly.

An example of waddling:
Charlo, Oro y Plata.

 

[JohnEm]

When a poster says that it should always be done as he describes, it implies a "rule". Since it was what HE said and not what YOU said, and I replied to HIM, I don't see a reason to debate whether or not he meant it as such with you. If he wants to chime in that he does or doesn't consider it a rule, then that's different.

It seems fairly pointless discussing this with you . .
but . . .

Your own posted started with an emphatic "NO",
and yet you are criticising my reasoned qualification
of your explanation. Not only that in claiming to
answer his post which was about men and walking,
you write about yours as a woman. What was the
relevance in that?

Later you have mentioned ailments with which I can
sympathise. We dance what we are and you have to do
whatever you need to do to minimise pain but that may
mean that what you need to do is not that relevant
as a specific way of dancing for others.

Tango as a dance of feeling means this is intensely
personal, let's leave it at that.

 

[Mad Tango Scientist]

I can't get a straight answer when it comes to whether or not the man should take toe leads on every step. I've heard some say that he should just take normal walking steps (heel, toe) footwork going forward. I've heard others say that he should be pioised slightly forward taking toe leads with every step. Can you guys help me sort this out?

I am afraid that both are wrong. I have been told by some very good Milongueros, that you never step with the toe or the heel, but instead step on a flat foot. The toe and heel must meet the floor at exactly the same time, much like the way that a cat steps. This will give you the smoothest gait and the follow will barely feel anything except for a smooth glide. When you reach the perfect equilibrium with your completely flat steps, it will feel like you are dancing on clouds.

 

[bordertangoman]

I am afraid that both are wrong. I have been told by some very good Milongueros, that you never step with the toe or the heel, but instead step on a flat foot. The toe and heel must meet the floor at exactly the same time, much like the way that a cat steps. This will give you the smoothest gait and the follow will barely feel anything except for a smooth glide. When you reach the perfect equilibrium with your completely flat steps, it will feel like you are dancing on clouds.

I don't mind that as long as there isn't the sound of the floor being sandpapered!! one of my pet peeves on (some) tango dancers.

 

[JohnEm]

I don't mind that as long as there isn't the sound of the floor being sandpapered!! one of my pet peeves on (some) tango dancers.

Some time ago before I went on my own path to discover
the dance in tango I asked a question of teacher about
how to walk. After receiving no useful answer I decided
the obvious thing was to copy him. Within 5 minutes his
partner stopped me telling me not to "sandpaper" the floor
and that the foot is kept as clear of the floor as is necessary
to avoid contact. What is a student to do in the face of such
obvious contradictions?

In videos you can still hear and see this teacher
brushing the floor as he moves.

 

[Mladenac]

What is a student to do in the face of such obvious contradictions?

In videos you can still hear and see this teacher
brushing the floor as he moves.

She doesn't hear that sound with him.

Dance how to please your partner and yourself.

 

[dchester]

I am afraid that both are wrong. I have been told by some very good Milongueros, that you never step with the toe or the heel, but instead step on a flat foot. The toe and heel must meet the floor at exactly the same time, much like the way that a cat steps. This will give you the smoothest gait and the follow will barely feel anything except for a smooth glide. When you reach the perfect equilibrium with your completely flat steps, it will feel like you are dancing on clouds.

I reeeeally think that's simply another preference.

BTW, have you ever seen a cat land on anything other than the ball of it's foot?

 

[bordertangoman]

I reeeeally think that's simply another preference.

BTW, have you ever seen a cat land on anything other than the ball of it's foot?

yes. I've seen a cat land on our fence..

its a flaws comparison since1. if you look at the bone structure its front and back tarsals meta-tarsals and phalanges are arranged differently to a human foot.
2. Cats mostly walk on four legs not two.
3. Cats don't dance to tango music, they prefer jazz.

 

[LadyLeader]

For general walking, close embrace, I land completely flat but with weight on the forefoot. I never heel-toe because landing on heel and then toe takes place on two different beats: Ba-dump. You'll never hear this rhythm in tango.

How are the backward steps musically for you?
I can not see how to take those steps without the toe landing first followed by heel.

 

[Zoopsia59]

It seems fairly pointless discussing this with you . .
but . . .
Not only that in claiming to
answer his post which was about men and walking,
you write about yours as a woman. What was the
relevance in that?

Apparently you missed the part of his post (that I was replying to) that said a woman should walk exactly as he had described for a man

So in light of that rather important detail, I agree with you. It is pointless for you and I to discuss this.

 

[Zoopsia59]

yes. I've seen a cat land on our fence..

Cats don't dance to tango music, they prefer jazz.

I've seen a cat land on it's head... but not while dancing tango... that's usually more of a hip-hop thing.

My cats have been trying for years to master the difference between sacadas and paradas. Their inability to either sacada my trailing foot rather than my leading one, or get to the correct placement in time for a parada of my leading foot, usually results in me tripping over them. I've given up on them every learning these complex moves