Sir Ken Robinson

T

tangomonkey

Active Member
Thank you for the post. I've seen it before, but it's worth thinking about. I don't think just adding arts, including, dance, is the solution. As much good as it can do, it just different icing on the same cake. The world my grand daughter is growing up in is vastly different than the one I did. I do believe that new experimental programs will emerge and perhaps there will be a door for Ballroom to be involved.
 
Linda J Schlensker said:
The world my grand daughter is growing up in is vastly different than the one I did.
Click to expand...


I think that is what Robinson is addressing in the RSA Animate clip (the first one). Sir Ken says the current education paradigm met the needs of industrialized nations during the industrialization process. It does not meet the needs of a post-industrial society. His main point is the old factory model of education needs changed. Develop the entire person, both hemispheres of the brain. He seems to suggest the primary aim (or a very important part) of education should be the development of creativity and divergent thinking, to become individuals able to adapt to whatever the world gives them. The performing and visual arts are part of that process.

The reason I posted this link (and one of the reasons it resonates with me) is my 13 month old granddaughter. She sways her body and head to music and has done so ever since she could sit up. She is fascinated and loves watching her dad play violin. She likes to hold her mom's 1/16th size violin and bow and tries to play it. Nurture and nature... The study Robinson referenced makes an interesting point: creativity and divergent thinking are natural but under-nurtured, and we lose those skills over time because of it. To our own and society's detriment.
 
It sounds as if your grand daughter may have the opportunity to be exposed to many different learning options outside of school through you. I hope for the best for her and you as well.

I am currently looking at all the research on what dancing and music does in terms of our health and quality of life and I think it's relationship to play and relationship with others are are part of that. Play is learning with divergent thinking and relationships require co-operation in groups. We know an infant will die if it never touched and as an adult we move more and more away from touch. So we have pets instead. (Do not think I'm anti pet. My dance partner wants to be reincarnated as my dog.) Children dance, move, and express themselves to music. They touch each other. All this is allowed in social dancing. Kind of makes you wonder if improving the education system would put me out of business. I may be shooting myself in the foot here. Hope this is somewhat coherent. Again, all my best.
 
As a teenager in the early 90s my school had "dance" as part of PE. I remain traumatised by being forced to take part in perfomances to the whole of Cats, the sound track of Lost boys and Everybody wants to be cat amongst other atrocities. In addition to the fact that our PE uniform when not wearing a netball skirt, was PE knickers (think Navy blue bridget jones knickers) and an airtex shirt, the choreography and our attempts to do it was shameful. The whole experience put me off "dance" of any kind for a good 10 years.
Any one else suffered deeply in this way?
I still break into a cold sweat if I hear "Memories"...


I am still trying to work out why Lost boys? WTH?
 
Sir Ken says the current education paradigm met the needs of industrialized nations during the industrialization process. It does not meet the needs of a post-industrial society. His main point is the old factory model of education needs changed. Develop the entire person, both hemispheres of the brain.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we are in a post-industrial world (I could argue with that, but it's too complex.), but we certainly aren't in a world where knowledge of what makes the world work isn't important. Also note that, in the US at least, for various(?) reasons, music, dance, and "art" are largely missing from current public school curricula.
Learning to dance was, not too long ago, considered to be essential for "upper and middle class" people. I had dance lessons in grade school, and college. They were "traumatic" because I was that age where just about anything is traumatic!

I don't think this has anything to do with "post industrial", since learning music or dance had nothing to do with running a cotton gin, or assembly line (even those that assemble iPods!).
Wish I had time to write an essay.
 
Looking back, I was till of an age when the school system was congruent with our expectations of life. The arts of any kind were electives and P.E. was mostly push up and deep knee bends. The whole thing was about getting ready for a job. Most of the expected jobs is my rural area were at the factory, on the farm, or in the hospital. McDonald's came into being when I was young. There were massive changes in education soon after I got out of school but those changes tried to fit in the existing model. So although I can't remember being traumatized, I cannot remember being encouraged or having hope of a bright future.

The horror I see today is that so many kids are involved in too many things. I had one young man in the school who was in so many extra curricular activities he didn't have a day off. If he was awake he was doing something, sports, homework, debating team, band, church stuff. He had never dated. Smart. Exhausted. He was too tired to learn anything about dance and he wanted to. He was a natural talent. I saw no joy in him either. And it's a shame, because I as an adult I discovered learning is fun.
 
It’s standard economic talk these days to divide nations into “developed” and “emerging”. In the developed ones, manufacturing of physical goods has declined sharply as a percent of GDP, and has been doing so for 2-3 generations. (I don’t know the exact numbers for the U.S., but they are probably available in the St. Louis Federal Reserve database called FRED). Emerging nations are industrializing, manufacturing the world’s goods, and increasingly providing the services too. The above is one description of post-industrial / industrial.

But I don’t think defining industrial or post-industrial matters all that much to Robinson’s arguments. Education is still run on a factory model, standardized subjects (primarily left brained ones), taught to groups of students according to their “date of manufacture” (I like that phrase of his), with measured outcomes. Don’t get me wrong, I am for ALL students taking math and sciences. Those subjects are vitally important. But content taught by student age, rather than ability at a specific point in time, is not likely the best approach. And these subjects are not EVERYTHING. The arts (performing and visual), are neglected. The liberal arts too. To thrive in a world of global competition requires a great deal of creativity and divergent thinking, by corporations and individuals. (I’d like to say politicians too, but that’s a lost cause). I think that is the primary point Robinson is making. (The creativity bit, not the politician part ;)). The arts (including the liberal arts), taught properly, encourage these things. (spectator – dance as part of PE or as part of a musical, is not being taught properly) . Perhaps I shouldn't say the “arts”. For example, I don’t mean dance, I mean movement to sound; I don’t mean playing piano, I mean learning to HEAR music and let it emotionally touch you (by listening and singing, playing an instrument comes later). For lack of a better word, the “arts” are one way to develop creativity and divergent thinking, not the only way, but a good way. Taught and nurtured throughout the 12-13 years of formal education the measurable outcome would quite likely be well-rounded, confident human beings, better able to decide their post-secondary area of study, and able to prosper in any economic environment. Any nation able to nurture creativity and divergent thinking is going to be ahead of the game, post-industrial, industrial, agricultural…IMHO.

Sorry to put all this on a tango forum. Anyone who wants to can send me a PM to carry on the discussion. Or we can carry on here…
 
Thanks for the link defining the O. theory. To Tangomonkey, I don't think the thread is inappropriate. We are still talking about the place of dance in the world. I'm sure the moderators will encourage us to move elsewhere if they feel we've gone out of bounds.

When we talk about education and economics we are talking about preparing people for careers (jobs). With the world changing as rapidly as it is, do we need schools to help us prepare life skills as well? A lot of people were hurt in this recession because they didn't know enough about how their money was invested. They thought they had done everything right. A better understanding of ethics may have slowed down the risks people took with those investment monies. An appreciation of the arts may de-stress people enough to put off that coming heart attack because they weren't getting enough exercise. All the above have economic implications.

I remember watching a video clip of the guys who were designing the Mac Air. They were talking about first, building a great product but then went into how they would fit all the necessary pieces into an elegant design that had beauty and function.

As a dancer, I use a different Mac to buy music, play music, talk to other people on forums, advertise my business....

My school education in the 50's & 60's did not prepare me for this! The education processes we have today are not going to specifically prepare the current crop for the full future ahead of them. I think the best we can do is to teach people real stuff for now and teach them how to learn. And I agree that divergent thinking is a necessary goal. I do believe social and partnered dance has a valuable role it could play in that. It engages so many different parts of the brain. We hear music more deeply when we dance. We listen to the rhythm lines. We move our bodies. We also touch and interact with other people. While young children and early teens are put off by the traditional ballroom dances because of the boy/girl nature (yuch) they do enjoy ring and folk dances which also involve a degree of partnership and touch. Folk dances can create a connection to the histories of the countries they came from.
Just realized I am running off at the mouth now. I am going to take these thoughts out to the garden with me and plant some bulbs while I still have some light.
 
My only gripe with the education-system is that it takes too long, and eats up too much tax-payers' money, therefore: Just how long does it take to churn out yet another interchangeably domesticated/infantile, insecure-nasty, atomized, worker/consumer-drone, anyway?

I'm sure that it should only, really, take half the time....

Teaching them dance and art etc will only give them ideas above their station - if they've got time and energy for such things, they're not working hard enough!
 
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