Standing on Toes?

[Subliminal]

ok, weird question. I danced with this girl recently and I had a lot of trouble telling where her feet were. After we finished dancing I saw her dancing with someone else, and I noticed she was wearing flat dancing shoes and standing on her toes. I've seen other girls do this too... is it possible to dance like this and still project where your feet are? 'cause I didn't feel much of anything.

 

[Chris Stratton]

I think you'd have to ask if theres a common situation in which the heel end of the foot must take weight. If not, then it would seem to be a matter of how high on the toes, foot strength (for balance) and the person's general skills.

Often an obvious quirk comes along with a lot of other aspects of a person's dancing being.... also unusual for that style of dancing.

 

[Zoopsia59]

ok, weird question. I danced with this girl recently and I had a lot of trouble telling where her feet were. After we finished dancing I saw her dancing with someone else, and I noticed she was wearing flat dancing shoes and standing on her toes. I've seen other girls do this too... is it possible to dance like this and still project where your feet are? 'cause I didn't feel much of anything.

I think it IS possible because a fabulous teacher-follower taught me about how grounding has nothing to do with your feet and everything to do with some muscles in your lower abs and pelvis

But I think only someone like her can actually DO it. Personally, I don't think I HAVE those muscles... must be a birth defect....

Sometimes people who are used to wearing high heels end up on their toes when they wear flats because that is the familiar position and orientation of the foot.

And I think some just get too focused on making their feet "pretty" and moving flat-footed doesn't feel pretty.

If a follower is accustomed to having the heel of the shoe contact the floor sooner in her backstep, then she may take steps that are too long for her to get her heel down when she's in flats. Also, unless one has a very flexible achilles, it can be a bit difficult to get the heels down all the time in flats. You have to think about it, and how it changes the length of the steps.

I also think people who have studied a lot of ballet are more likely to dance up on "demi-point" out of habit. They are also likely to have those beautifully arched feet and feel that they are stable up on their toes.

Personally, I always recommend to followers that they work through the entire foot and not reach so far back that getting the heel down requires moving away from the leader or changing the incline of lean. Although we know from ballet that someone can be grounded and stable way up on pointe with the knee locked, the average hobby tango dancer is not stable or grounded that way.

I believe that's why you can't tell where she is.

 

[Subliminal]

Thanks both of you, interesting answers.

Maybe it just felt off to me because I wasn't used to it, or maybe she really wasn't grounding.

 

[Angel HI]

Many, many 'teachers', argentines included, wear such shoes like dance sneakers for example, to teach in, and dance holding their weights forward on/over the toes.

 

[Mladenac]

Heels or not heels does not make any difference with proper back step.

If she steps with extended leg and have clear landing you will feel it.
If she steps on flexible leg, you won't feel it.

I find problem with some follower that when not having shoes they go lower that in shoes so I have problems with varying height if dancing in CE.

 

[Peaches]

Many, many 'teachers', argentines included, wear such shoes like dance sneakers for example, to teach in, and dance holding their weights forward on/over the toes.

Yup. I know there are some girls around here who tend to wear jazz slippers or some such, usually because they are on the tall side. One girl I'm thinking of is on the very tall side. If they wore heels it'd just be...kinda silly, really, and probably very difficult to dance with the guys. I'm wondering which one Sub encountered.

There have been times when I've danced in socks or flat shoes, and I find that I can't do it without being up on my toes/balls. Without doing that my weight is just too far back or something. I'm used to stepping back and having that heel under me...to step back and have to bring my heel all the way down to the floor just feels strange. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just not used to it. Perhaps that's what you ran across--a girl who, for one reason or another, wasn't quite used to dancing like that.

Really, I've got no clue.

 

[Me]

Yep. When I dance on the balls of my feet, it is because I wore jazz sneakers that day. But even on your toes, you can still be very back-weighted, so you have to watch for that. I've seen many ladies dance on their toes and compensate by keeping their weight back, rather than be forward. It can be really hard on the guys, because the ladies are struggling with their balance and they're pulling the guys over.

If I'm dancing on my very tip toes (not just forward or with heels slightly lifted), it is generally because the lead is squeezing me to death on top while being back-weighted, and I haven't wriggled my way out of his grip yet. I'll dance on my toes, even in my highest heels, and try my best to not poke my bottom out, though sometimes it seems it just can't be helped... but I hear that some guys like it when the girls show the "tango ghetto booty", so maybe it isn't all so bad afterall.

 

[New in NY]

When I practice at home, I wear house slippers that are something like ballet slippers. I just can't dance in heels all the tme and I have found it preferable to wearing my ballroom practice shoes for AT. I do stay on my toes, although I lower the heel slightly when walking backward. My husband does not mention that he feels any difference when dancing with me with or without heels, but then he is used to dancing with me. I think it would feel more awkward to dance in flat shoes with feet to the ground unless you rarely wore heels.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Heels or not heels does not make any difference with proper back step.

Yes, proper is proper, and imprpoer is improper. Extending (reaching) is still an important element in the backstep. But it IS different in high heels.

If the follower reaches through the TOP of her foot (pointing her toe) while wearing flats, she is likely to reach too far to be able to place her heel down without moving away from the leader. So she might end up NOT putting her heel down which may result in her leaning on him more. If she is wearing a 4" stiletto, then the heel is closer to being in contact with the floor even when her toe is pointed. Its simple geometry.

'Extending" the leg for a step does not have to mean pointing the toe, but many followers DO point the toe when reaching, especially if they have had ballet training. I'm not saying that they shouldn't extend. I'm saying they should be aware of the limitations to the proper reach when wearing flats unless they WANT to dance on their toes all night.

The problem arises when beginners see a dancer who dances on her toes without even trying to put her heels down (stays on her toes throughout rather than working through the foot) and that advanced dancer is likely to LOOK very good dancing. Then the beginner thinks dancing way up on tippy-toe is the correct way and desirable, but is unable to reproduce that ballerina's stability or grounding by doing so.

 

[Steve Pastor]

is it possible to dance like this and still project where your feet are? 'cause I didn't feel much of anything.

I think the answer to this question is that it isn't too likely that she will be able to communicate to you where her feet, weight, axis, are.
I'm glad that some of you are aware that this is a problem.

It has been my hope for at least several years now that people who teach tango will tell their female students that they are responsible for making it easier, rather than harder, for the man to "feel where they are": feet, "weight", axis, momentum.

"Walking" is not terribly problematic, at least in my experience. It's the lack of feedback with "small" "in place" not walking "weight changes" that are the problem.
Even through the woman is right there in front of you, she has "gone away" and you "don't know where she is". (I think people can subsitute repetition, (repeated us of the same "patterns" or series of movements) for "feel" in "making it work".)

So, next thing I wish people would teach more are good, clean weight changes and steps.

Your question is not weird at all, except maybe in the context of "It's all about HER".

 

[Mladenac]

Yes, proper is proper, and imprpoer is improper. Extending (reaching) is still an important element in the backstep. But it IS different in high heels.

If the follower reaches through the TOP of her foot (pointing her toe) while wearing flats, she is likely to reach too far to be able to place her heel down without moving away from the leader. So she might end up NOT putting her heel down which may result in her leaning on him more. If she is wearing a 4" stiletto, then the heel is closer to being in contact with the floor even when her toe is pointed. Its simple geometry.

'Extending" the leg for a step does not have to mean pointing the toe, but many followers DO point the toe when reaching, especially if they have had ballet training. I'm not saying that they shouldn't extend. I'm saying they should be aware of the limitations to the proper reach when wearing flats unless they WANT to dance on their toes all night.

The problem arises when beginners see a dancer who dances on her toes without even trying to put her heels down (stays on her toes throughout rather than working through the foot) and that advanced dancer is likely to LOOK very good dancing. Then the beginner thinks dancing way up on tippy-toe is the correct way and desirable, but is unable to reproduce that ballerina's stability or grounding by doing so.

Interesting, I will take this down to my black book of tango

When dancing with some followers I have difficulty because they were so tender and responsive.
The more I danced with them the more I felt them. 8)

 

[bordertangoman]

ok, weird question. I danced with this girl recently and I had a lot of trouble telling where her feet were. After we finished dancing I saw her dancing with someone else, and I noticed she was wearing flat dancing shoes and standing on her toes. I've seen other girls do this too... is it possible to dance like this and still project where your feet are? 'cause I didn't feel much of anything.

The simple answer is 'yes'. I've danced with ladies often in sneakers who dance like this. Its no problem, and on the rare occasions I follow I prefer to be on my toes too, or at least keeping my heels off the ground as it allows for faster movement.