A different way to teach tango

[tangomaniac]

I have a friend, Valerie, who started group lessons which I supplemented with some private help. Based on her description, the group teacher was teaching the "standard" way of leader's and follower's footwork with absolutely no mention of leading from the torso. Women memorized to go the cross regardless if the man lead it correctly. She was tired of beginning men pushing her around the floor. When I suggested she tell the teacher, she erupted like Mont Vesuvius.

Well, she dropped out completely, another casualty of tango. She isn't the first woman to drop out and I'm sure she won't be the last. I suggest that beginner men and women should be taught separately.

1) Men are taught what to do with their feet and not their torso. They need to learn how to lead from the torso. I remember taking classes from Daniel Trenner. He emphasized that the men should dance with men because they would find harder to push another man. They should be told Gavito's quote: I lead, but I follow. They have to know how to pivot. Men who can't pivot pull and push their partner through ochos.

2) Women don't need to know figures. They need to know HOW TO MOVE!! Very few women bend their knees so they can't extend their legs, causing small steps. SMALL steps cause BIG problems. With a BIG step, I can feel where her weight is located. It's more difficult with small steps it's easy to unintentionally shift the weight to the wrong foot. They trip over their own feet during ochos.

When men are women are taught in the same class, most of the time is spent on the men while women wait. In a separate class, they don't have to wait for men to figure it out and can concentrate on their technique.

Another issue is there's rarely a discussion of frame. Bad frame leads to bad dancing. A tall man won't be impacted by a short woman with bad frame. But I'm short and a woman's bad frame makes it difficult if not impossible to lead her. I lead her to pivot one way and she pivots the other way because her frame got in the way.

Musicality is a different subject. I don't think music should be used in beginner classes because the class is focusing more on the figures. They may not be able to keep up with the music so they rush. If you can't dance without the music, you can't dance with the music.

I almost forgot navigation. A lot of men never pass up an opportunity to lead a difficult figure when the floor is crowded.

That's enough. I feel better.

 

[jantango]

The problem is people start learning tango without knowing and loving the music first. It's impossible to dance to any music you don't know.

A woman from Australia wrote me today about her upcoming visit in October to BsAs. She dances salsa and bachata and inquired about tango lessons. My first question to her: Why do you want to learn tango? If she doesn't know the music, that's where she must begin. If I wanted to learn bachata, I would listen first to the music. If I don't like the music, the dance will not interest me.

 

[Lui]

In Berlin you will find many ways to teach the dance. Many do not fit my taste. There are lessons available,

• where you have to count to eight for everything you do.
• where you initial a fixed pre-learned pattern by an mark with your hand.
• where you do half an hour yoga before hand – which is good thing but of rather limited use for real social tango.
• where you dance barefooted after contacting mother earth by an shamanistic ritual.
• where you combine tango with shibary.

… just to name a few. However, much more scary maybe the fact that many people deliberately have chosen one of those among all the other option and are happy.

So what can we true Sentinels of Tango do? Nothing, except to gather our likeminded friends and celebrated the most enjoyable Milonga there can be. It’s easy, when you always remember the one true mantra:

“It’s good that they are there, and not here!”​

I've heard, it is successful used by the other sides as well.

 

[UKDancer]

There are lessons available where ... you have to count to eight for everything you do.

I have found that a slow count to eight is an excellent way to instil the rudiments of dancing with musicality. It can serve very well, UNTIL is starts to limit, rather than form a basic framework for dancing with the music. When you can feel a better way, you are ready to move on.

 

[tangomaniac]

I have found that a slow count to eight is an excellent way to instil the rudiments of dancing with musicality. It can serve very well, UNTIL is starts to limit, rather than form a basic framework for dancing with the music. When you can feel a better way, you are ready to move on.

Why a count of 8? Molinetes don't fit the count of 8, nor do ochos (as strange as it may seem?) I agree completely with dancing slowly so that both partners feel what they are doing.

 

[UKDancer]

Why a count of 8?

Because one way or another, the musical phrasing of tango music can almost always be counted in eights. Sometimes, we would feel a shorter phrase, and if we're dancing to an orchestra of the Decarean school (in particular), longer: but it would be unusual if a longer phrase wasn't formed from multiples of eight, and if shorter, then it probably relates to an eight-count with an answering phrase or something similar.

The music may be almost invariably so phrased, but molinetes/giros don't have fixed timings, and neither do ochos, so the dancers' challenge, using such elements, is to fit them with the music, not to treat it as some sort of background noise.

I'm suggesting here a very rudimentary method of approaching musicality and the phrasing of tango, but it is one that serves many dancers well. Once such rules of thumb no longer serve, leave them, and move on. But good dancing starts with a good grasp of rhythm and phrasing. Eights is a good place to start.

 

[Lui]

If it’s works for you, than that is fine. But that is exactly my point: different people will prefer a different approach.

For a social dancer I myself see no gain to label a certain step number five, especially when step number five can arise somewhere between the 3th to 7th beat. Keeping count only wastes intellectual capacity, that will be better invested by listening to the music, pronouncing the steps and forming the frame. Once a dancer changes frequently, between following the beat, one of the rhythms or the melody while leading his partner in a contrasting way, it’s much harder to find a sensible way to keep count than to dancing the stuff itself. So why strap yourself in a straitjacket, which need to be broken free the next moment anyway.

One the other hand there are a lot of people looking for supporting guidance. As almost anybody can count to eight, it gives the warm fuzzy feeling of success. Sometimes they relax and really feel connected to the music, thus dancing with more musicality. In my observation this works only a for a minority, most get tangled up in counting.

 

[dchester]

Why a count of 8? Molinetes don't fit the count of 8, nor do ochos (as strange as it may seem?) I agree completely with dancing slowly so that both partners feel what they are doing.

One reason would be to try and get people to dance to the music (where the 8 would make sense), rather than just thinking about some step pattern.

BTW, one can make molinetes and ochos fit whatever phrasing you want them to.

I wonder if some are confusing counting steps (executing some pattern), with counting beats (part of musicality). They are not the same thing at all. Granted once you are more experienced (hopefully), you aren't counting either one, as you just feel it and don't need to count.

I do agree that different people learn in different ways though. Not every approach works for every person.

 

[jantango]

 

[Steve Pastor]

"The Dancer's Eight" is pretty well established for many "serious" dancers.
This from swing dance teacher Skippy Blair.

Counts were not legitimate counts to those of us who had dealt with Broadway & Hollywood dancers. We were accustomed to musicians that understood the "Dancers 8" - Our musical understanding did not confine dancers to 4-beat measures.

Mini-Phrase One (1) Set-of-8 beats of music in 4/4 time. The ”Dancer’s 8.”

The why isn't this 8 beats long question comes up frequently with beginners in swing, too.

Since most music we dance to is in 4/4 time, a lot of things have developed to fit that 2 bar, 8 1/4 notes convention. It seems that many musicians are a bit baffled when given a pattern that uses only 6 1/4 notes.

why strap yourself in a straitjacket

Blair has successfully been preaching a "2 beat unit" for dancers. Haven't thought too much about it in AT, but would like to. Sure wish she would tackle it, though, but doubt she ever will. (But hey, there's those AT pros who are dancing pretty much just down the block from her.)

And, JanTango, you are on a role with these classic AT scenes! I love seeing them again, even though I have both these films available at home!

 

[Lui]

Jan was so kind to post a wonderful video of really excellent social Milonguero dancing back in 2010:

youtube.com/watch?v=xIkqCQo63Ig&list=TL8ZXcvBgNDK0

I recognize most of the step patterns and might be even able to reproduce a bunch of them, but I find it extremely difficult to fit them into any 4 or 8 count.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I find it extremely difficult to fit them into any 4 or 8 count.

So, what if you broke them down into "2 beat units?"

What I think happens, is that they/we (being those of us who pay attention to the music) make decisions about what we are going to do so that our combinations start/end with the phrasing in the music.
While one step combo might be 6 beats long, we may well chose a 2 beat combo to hit the end of an 8 beat phrase in the music.

It's all multiples of 2 (as long as we are talking about music that can be written with a 4/4 (or 2/4) time signature.

At least that's what I think, having sipped the 2 beat unit kool-aid.

 

[Subliminal]

Jan was so kind to post a wonderful video of really excellent social Milonguero dancing back in 2010:

youtube.com/watch?v=xIkqCQo63Ig&list=TL8ZXcvBgNDK0

I recognize most of the step patterns and might be even able to reproduce a bunch of them, but I find it extremely difficult to fit them into any 4 or 8 count.

I'm not sure that it's a good exercise to get people to scrunch a pattern down into 8 beats, particularly a beginner. I think the idea is just to get people to listen for musical phrases, which are often 2 measures long. My first teacher was pretty good at this. I'd be dancing along merrily trying to figure out the steps to the giro, and mid-giro she'd stop me and hold me there. I'd be like, "Whaaa?" And she'd say, "Listen, you're dancing over a pause in the music."

Beginners have so much to worry about. I think any starting point for them that involves finding some part of the music is good.

 

[Lui]

I totally agree, cutting out a 10 sec piece of music with a specific musical twist. Have them listen to it so they recognize it. Demonstrate one possibility to interpret it, than explain the details of movement, so that they can copy it with its pronunciation. Have them dance it to that piece of music. Than they shall try to hit this and similar piece while dancing to the complete piece. Goal is to score at least three times. Once it works out, repeat with another possibility. If they are good or very motivated, have then find some possibilities on their own. In my experience a much more effective way to achieve harmony of music and movement than to count for it.

This harmony however is only secondary to beginners, first they are looking for a way to “survive on the dance floor”. They have three main problems: they bump into other couples, they blank out what to do or can translate their ideas into movement and they are afraid that their dance is boring when dancing with advanced partners. This can be usually cured within 45 minutes but counting won’t help you.

While correct on the music theoretical side 8 is a very unusable number for real life dancing. During eight beats anything can happen: Sombody cuts of your lane, your partner starts some funny embellishments, get stuck in her dress or somebody bumps into your back ... . You better get them some proven standard solutions and don’t bother them with counting.

There is, however, one magical number, the same you may find in fairy tales: 3.
In traditional tango the motive is usually repeated 3 times, than there is a variation or transition. So once you hear a tune you will have 2 more times to find a suitable musical interpretation.

Three is also a good number to repeat certain elements, eg. ochos. With three ochos the woman will have a good feeling; five are a little much … after seven you better present a good excuse.

 

[Lui]

@steve
That sounds a little bit like a tactical board game.

OK, a 2-beat action would be collecting your feet or doing a double time rocking step. Will it fit to that moment or will it break your flow. Why not do a 6-beat combo glue the next onto it with a 3-beat ocho. Take one step for transition and finish of with another 6-beat combo.

Or you just follow the melody and arrive at the same point, since the composer had kindly constructed it over those 16 beats.