Abrazo - The Embrace

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#81
Within the embrace, in a back cross you are in that position with the pelvis turned to face a different direction than the chest.
Not necessarily. In a pivoting ocho (back or otherwise), there is dissociation (twisting) going on, certainly. But for milonguero ochos, then no. The feeling with milonguero (crossing) ochos is of the hips staying parallel to the leader, but with one side or the other "sinking" or lowering as you stretch the side of the body to take that back/side step with the free leg.

But you are narrowly considering dissociation only as a separate rotation of the upper body to face a different direction from the pelvis whereas I was considering dissociation to be the separation of movement of the pelvis and the upper body. Walking comfortably outside and maintaining
the embrace requires dissociation.
This sounds like two different concepts going on. If you're considering dissociation to be the separation of movement between the pelvis and upper body, then that happens all the time. Obviously. There is no way to walk and move the legs and hips while maintaining a smooth, constant contact in the embrace without it. I have never heard this use/definition of "dissociation". When talking about walking comfortably outside (meaning outside partner? as opposed to in line?), then yes, you have to use dissociation...of the rotational sort.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#82
Dissociation to describe a leader's weight changing that goes unfelt by the follower...never heard that definition before. Yay. More confusion.
it is an essential part of cross-system; the only terminology I've found to describe it is :-

Contrapaso :Weight change used to switch between parallel and cross system of walking.
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#83
it is an essential part of cross-system; the only terminology I've found to describe it is :-

Contrapaso :Weight change used to switch between parallel and cross system of walking.
I don't disagree--the man being able to change weight without the woman feeling it is integral to AT, not just the cross system. It gets used all the time. I just have never heard the term "dissociation" used to describe it. I have always heard "dissociation" used to describe "twisting", aka rotating the hips and shoulders independently of one another.
 
#84
There's the reason I enjoy apilado so much. Not for the sake of the challenge, but for potential for subtle nuance and expression.
I don't think it's actually necessary to dance apilado to do milonguero ochos. But it's certainly easier.

Did you know you can actually tell a joke using forward ochos?
Does it involve an Englishman, an American and an Argeninian walking into a bar?
 
#85
Not necessarily. In a pivoting ocho (back or otherwise), there is dissociation (twisting) going on, certainly. But for milonguero ochos, then no. The feeling with milonguero (crossing) ochos is of the hips staying parallel to the leader, but with one side or the other "sinking" or lowering as you stretch the side of the body to take that back/side step with the free leg.
To be fair, I was trying to describe this to a teacher on Tuesday, and she thought I was describing ochos in close embrace, so it's not like the concept's an easy one to grasp.
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#86
that's pretty pedantic; are you saying that pelvis moves independently of the chest or the other way around?
I'm actually saying it's either - it's an intended separation, sometimes of
the direction of the pelvis from the chest or the other way round. I suspect
it may be what some teach as an isolation though I have no experience.

not really, natural walking usually involves contrabody motion
You've been to D&M workshops? But yes but that isn't normally regarded
as dissociation as it's a whole body torsion with no purposeful isolation.

I certainly do disagree..it isnt a narrow approach. Although I frown on the use of the term dissociation to describe what is just a twist of the body for the follower, although I accept its a common usage in tango circles*
And quite a lot of followers don't seem to be able to do in dance what
they normally make use of to a lesser extent in normal non-dance life.
*In my use of the term only leaders disscociate as they have to make weight changes that the follower doesnt feel.
I wouldn't use dissociation to describe that, probably confusion!
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#87
To be fair, I was trying to describe this to a teacher on Tuesday, and she thought I was describing ochos in close embrace, so it's not like the concept's an easy one to grasp.
And it not necessarily so easy to do either, depending on how much flexibility one does or doesn't have. I remember one private lesson I had where we worked for a good while on sinking the hip of the free leg. Just crossing back ochos, in open position, with the teacher's hands on my hips encouraging me to stretch and sink the free hip. I know as a result of that that I am able to sink my left hip more easily than my right...at least until I get good and warmed up.

(One thing I miss from my lessons is the chance, once every two weeks, to get my muscles really warm and flexible. It always felt so good to be able to crack my back again finally--something I can't really do anymore unless my muscles are very warmed up, just because my back has gotten so stiff in the last couple of years. Sigh.)

ETA: Another thing which just occurred to me... It can take a while to realize that the hips can be free enough to really do that. So often it's easy to think about movement coming from the legs...maybe from the hips downward. But for these ochos to work (and so many other things as well--like just good walking) the movement really needs to come from the ribcage all the way on down. So you've kind of got competing ideas of keeping your core toned (not going all floppy and swaybacked, yada yada), but also loosening your sides and the muscles in your lower back and pelvis and whatnot in order to get that movement in the lower back/hips. When I manage to get things all together, I just keep thinking of something another D-F person said in the BR forum: her teacher telling her (in the midst of a Standard lesson) to "pee all over the floor". Sounds strange, and I had no clue what was meant by that...and then I learned how to really move from the ribcage, and to relax the muscles in my hips and pelvis and whatnot...and damned if the idea of peeing all over the floor didn't start to make sense. But that takes time. But...oh, when it comes together and you feel that looseness and freedom through your body...everything transforms. Walking feels completely and utterly different...and divine. So feminine, so powerful.
 
#88
*In my use of the term only leaders disscociate as they have to make weight changes that the follower doesnt feel.

BTM have you got the bold bit the right way round? And by that I mean the implication that the leader dissociates to make a weight change.

I can think of situations where I dissociate in order to lead a step or weight change by the follower without any step or weight change myself but I can't think of any situation where I need to dissociate in order to weight change for myself only.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#89
BTM have you got the bold bit the right way round? And by that I mean the implication that the leader dissociates to make a weight change.

I can think of situations where I dissociate in order to lead a step or weight change by the follower without any step or weight change myself but I can't think of any situation where I need to dissociate in order to weight change for myself only.
so how would you make a weight change that was one that the follower didnt follow?
 
#91
so how would you make a weight change that was one that the follower didnt follow?
Normally when a leader does weight change, the whole body responds to the shifting of weight, which is accompanied by a slight sway of your body toward the side of the new working foot. However, if you don't want the follower to change with you, you have to limit the weight change effect to below your torso. (i.e. dissociation - added during editing)

Try this: bend the knee of the former working foot (without position change of other part of your body), so to make the other foot to support your body. This way the weight get shifted to the other foot.

--
haha
Just realized that your question is a rhetorical one. I was feeling a bit embarassed trying to answer a question from a pro. Well, consider my reply as my answer to a quiz. :)
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#92
Normally when a leader does weight change, the whole body responds to the shifting of weight, which is accompanied by a slight sway of your body toward the side of the new working foot. However, if you don't want the follower to change with you, you have to limit the weight change effect to below your torso. (i.e. dissociation - added during editing)

Try this: bend the knee of the former working foot (without position change of other part of your body), so to make the other foot to support your body. This way the weight get shifted to the other foot.

--
haha
Just realized that your question is a rhetorical one. I was feeling a bit embarassed trying to answer a question from a pro. Well, consider my reply as my answer to a quiz. :)
no it wasnt rhetorical; i was asking how you would do this. But i do know how i do it and involves isolating/dissociation what happens below my waist so that any torso movement is impercetible.

(If this fails distraction works quite well; say "Look there's Sebastian Arce" and when she turns to look you change your weight. ;) )

I dont have a problem with the use of the word. I was taught how to isolate my hips by a belly dancer so you can movement in several different planes. I just think calling scratching my nose with my hand dissocation is a bit grand. If you want the woman to rotate her hips without moving her chest or vice versa, just ask her to do that.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#94
it is an essential part of cross-system; the only terminology I've found to describe it is :-

Contrapaso :Weight change used to switch between parallel and cross system of walking.
we need to turn this into a verb.....

Contrapassorate?
Contrapasserize?

I expect the Germans have a word for it:

ÄnderungsgewichtohnebewegendeBrustimdoppeltenLohn
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#96
no it wasnt rhetorical; i was asking how you would do this. But i do know how i do it and involves isolating/dissociation what happens below my waist so that any torso movement is imperceptible...
This is an interesting concept - making weight changes imperceptible. I only do this with complete beginners, who try to mirror my every step. With experienced dancers I don't mind at all that they know I've changed weight, sometimes it's part of the dance. I just make sure they don't feel a lead to change their weight.
 

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