It's always a negotiation. Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you an idea rather than what happens every night at the milongas. The lack of negotiation skills has never been good to anyone.
Advices For Milonga Participants
- Thread starter wadpro
- Start date
It's always a negotiation. Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you an idea rather than what happens every night at the milongas. The lack of negotiation skills has never been good to anyone.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
It warms my heart to hear you say this. Sadly, a lot of people seem to have missed that memo and will vehemently defend the idea of one partner or the other being allowed to determine the embrace. See the OP of this thread, and post #11 as examples.
newbie
Well-Known Member
Because the change of embrace during the dance is part of the lead and the lead is done by the leader. It's purely technical. When a follower doesn't follow the change of embrace it's just like anything that she does not follow, be it a boleo or a change of weight. When it happens I just take note, "this one can't change the embrace", like I would note that "this one has no axis" or "this one takes only small steps".
Peaches
Well-Known Member
I would argue that being able to change the embrace mid-dance (or being able to do it well) is a completely separate thing than entering into the embrace at the start of the dance or tanda.
Surely, if you realized your partner was uncomfortable with close embrace, you wouldn't try to force it during the middle of the dance?
Furthermore, while it is generally considered the lead's perogative to change the embrace within the course of the dance, the woman also has a say. She can refuse to go back into closed, for example, or indicate in other ways that she would like to switch from open to closed. It is still a negotiation, and still...no one has the right to be unilaterally determining the embrace.
Surely, if you realized your partner was uncomfortable with close embrace, you wouldn't try to force it during the middle of the dance?
Furthermore, while it is generally considered the lead's perogative to change the embrace within the course of the dance, the woman also has a say. She can refuse to go back into closed, for example, or indicate in other ways that she would like to switch from open to closed. It is still a negotiation, and still...no one has the right to be unilaterally determining the embrace.
That's because different people have different opinions on all this stuff. I've had people tell me that the man set's the embrace, and I've had people tell me that it's up to the woman. While I personally think the philosophy of it being a collaboration is a good one, we all have to deal with the fact that other people may have different opinions.
I think this, (like a lot of differing philosophies), is IMO why sometimes "it just doesn't work out" between two seemingly competent dancers. They have conflicting ideas on how things should work, and neither is able to accommodate the other's perception.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Firstly, I'm beginning to think that changes of embrace are things to be avoided during a dance.
Secondly, it just doesn't work that way in the UK. It may do where you live, of course, but in the UK, an invitation to a close embrace is exactly that - an invitation.
The intimacy implied by a close embrace pretty much ensures this. If you as a lead try to pull your partner into a close embrace against her will, you're not going to be happy.
Nay, nay and thrice nay.
Again I can only speak for the UK scene, but deciding to accept a close embrace is totally different to not understanding a lead for a specific step.
And it never occurs to you that perhaps your partner simply doesn't want to get into close embrace with you?
Hmmm.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Well... I think that if the woman has signalled that she's happy with both embraces, then it's reasonable for that to be a "given", and for the lead then to be able to determine the embrace. You can't keep on negotiating whilst in a dance, you know?
But of course that's only if and when the woman has so signalled.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
I dunno...I think you can continue to negotiate during the dance. Not as well, perhaps, but it's possible.
If the guy opens up, the lady can use her left arm to try and brace and send a signal that she doesn't much want to go back into close embrace (or outright physically prevent it from happening).
It's possible that she's amenable to close in general, and was willing to start out a dance or tanda with a specific gent in close, but for some reason or another changes her mind. Perhaps he smells, perhaps something about the combined posture is uncomfortable, perhaps his dancing isn't the greatest and she wants to be in a better position to keep her own balance or keep her toes out of harm's way, perhaps it's just really really warm and she'd like to cool off.
If the guy opens up, the lady can use her left arm to try and brace and send a signal that she doesn't much want to go back into close embrace (or outright physically prevent it from happening).
It's possible that she's amenable to close in general, and was willing to start out a dance or tanda with a specific gent in close, but for some reason or another changes her mind. Perhaps he smells, perhaps something about the combined posture is uncomfortable, perhaps his dancing isn't the greatest and she wants to be in a better position to keep her own balance or keep her toes out of harm's way, perhaps it's just really really warm and she'd like to cool off.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Mmmm... I think this way lies madness, you know?
Once you've sorted out the embrace - that is, at the end of the first track in the tanda - I think it stays sorted. If I as a leader have to worry that my follower is suddenly going to avoid close embrace, I'll never be able to relax and work on my connection.
There's an obvious parallel there to other situations, but I won't draw it
DoraTheExplorer
New Member
Oh wow! What horrible advice!
If men follow your advice I'd never get a dance at some venues.
What does it matter what shoes she has on? Maybe she's a tourist and had no time to change or couldn't bring her shoes. Or maybe she's an alternative tango dancer or her feet hurt from having danced in high heels at another milonga before this one.
If a woman rejected a guy, I'm sure she had HER reasons. It doesn't mean she's going to reject you!
The advice you should be giving to men is:
1. Don't smoke, drink alcohol or eat before a milonga.
2. Do shower before a milonga.
3. Do (PLEASE) use a deodorant.
4. If you sweat heavily, DO bring another shirt to change into. Most women woun't notice the change in the dark anyway and you'll be able to get more dances and less rejections.
5. When dancing don't stare at the girl's anatomy, instead watch where you are going with her.
6. Don't rub her hand and back during the dance. Not all women are there to meet men.
7. Check if the girl is single or not. If not, look at advice #6 and be a gentleman, ask her boyfriend/husband/partner for permission to dance with her.
8. If you are easily aroused, dance in an open embrace. Otherwise expect a rejection from her the next time you ask her to dance.
9. Embrace the woman when the tango music begins, not as soon as she said "yes, i'll dance with you". Also let go of the woman between each song, otherwise you look like a dodgy, creepy man with issues.
That's about it. My apologies if I push anyone's buttons with this, but I just needed to say this so everyone has a good experience. Obviously, many of the above points apply to women as well.
If men follow your advice I'd never get a dance at some venues.
What does it matter what shoes she has on? Maybe she's a tourist and had no time to change or couldn't bring her shoes. Or maybe she's an alternative tango dancer or her feet hurt from having danced in high heels at another milonga before this one.
If a woman rejected a guy, I'm sure she had HER reasons. It doesn't mean she's going to reject you!
The advice you should be giving to men is:
1. Don't smoke, drink alcohol or eat before a milonga.
2. Do shower before a milonga.
3. Do (PLEASE) use a deodorant.
4. If you sweat heavily, DO bring another shirt to change into. Most women woun't notice the change in the dark anyway and you'll be able to get more dances and less rejections.
5. When dancing don't stare at the girl's anatomy, instead watch where you are going with her.
6. Don't rub her hand and back during the dance. Not all women are there to meet men.
7. Check if the girl is single or not. If not, look at advice #6 and be a gentleman, ask her boyfriend/husband/partner for permission to dance with her.
8. If you are easily aroused, dance in an open embrace. Otherwise expect a rejection from her the next time you ask her to dance.
9. Embrace the woman when the tango music begins, not as soon as she said "yes, i'll dance with you". Also let go of the woman between each song, otherwise you look like a dodgy, creepy man with issues.
That's about it. My apologies if I push anyone's buttons with this, but I just needed to say this so everyone has a good experience. Obviously, many of the above points apply to women as well.
DoraTheExplorer
New Member
The woman does set the embrace, especially if she does not know the man. But I noticed that many men do not respect that or understand it, and slowly pull the girl closer.
DoraTheExplorer
New Member
Heather, your reply is beautiful!!!
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
The woman setting the embrace is an expected/accepted rule/act of courtesy (chivalry?), not a rule/act of law.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Oooh, that one's a bit controversial I think....
If the girl can tell you're aroused in close embrace, then either your name is King Dong, or you're not dancing in the correct posture.
Not sure about that one either. By definition, breaking embrace breaks connection. Also, I think if you're in the moment, it's nice to just stand there in embrace for a few seconds.
With the exception of the "be clean and respectful" advice, I think the rest of it I'd class as "opinions" not "rules".