Advices For Milonga Participants
- Thread starter wadpro
- Start date
Well, we know your feelings on the subject, but IMO, it's not simply that everyone doesn't understand it, but also that some people don't agree with it.
pascal
Active Member
Janis-of-Buenos-Aires, one comment? What does the milonguero-estilo codigo, authentic and so on, say? Do milongueros squeeze unknown foreign chicks? Do they let the chick set a distant embrace?
you can often tell.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Lilly_of_the_valley
Well-Known Member
I am not Janis, but I can tell that in Buenos Aires in traditional milongas everybody dances in close embrace. It is expected. I cannot even tell who decides, never crossed my mind... it is already decided. Yes, two people that never met before hold each other very close, and dance. Every year hundreds foreign chicks come to Buenos Aires just for that
To embrace and be embraced by milongueros.If a girl does not want to embrace her partner, I do not see how anybody could dance with her in such places... she probably will be asked once (if at all), and then basta.
And besides, if she does not want to dance in the embrace, what is she doing in that milonga in the 1st place??
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
I think I like Peach's answer best. Outside of BsAs, it is a negotiation.
...but! The leader has a very powerful tool in that negotiation. That is, the opening gambit. The way I was taught, the dance begins when the follower accepts. The leader is supposed to act his best before the couple even gets to the floor. The leader does not hesitate. He moves confidently, and acts as if the embrace is already decided. If the follower chooses to block, well then, the leader can't force it. He either goes with the follower's wishes, or doesn't dance with her. But the point is, if the leader acts like he knows what the hell he's doing, and projects the attitude of "I am a close embrace dancer. This is how I roll." then the follower is more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt.
...but! The leader has a very powerful tool in that negotiation. That is, the opening gambit. The way I was taught, the dance begins when the follower accepts. The leader is supposed to act his best before the couple even gets to the floor. The leader does not hesitate. He moves confidently, and acts as if the embrace is already decided. If the follower chooses to block, well then, the leader can't force it. He either goes with the follower's wishes, or doesn't dance with her. But the point is, if the leader acts like he knows what the hell he's doing, and projects the attitude of "I am a close embrace dancer. This is how I roll." then the follower is more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt.
For me the question about the embrace is very easy...the follower decides..And if i am unable to dance with her because of the embrace she has chosen we end the dance at the end of second song maybe...There is no need to prolong the torture..It doe's not mean that i am a bad dancer and it doe's not mean she cannot follow.We just don't fit...
Why waste so little tango time we have dancing with the wrong partner.Smile say thank you and move on..And at all times show respect and good manners...This also applies to invitations to dance. If a follower says no. Say thank you and move on, You never know she might ask you next time(i hope if she doe's you accept). Respect and good manners in the milonga for the few hours we are there cost nothing and can make the experience so much better..
Why waste so little tango time we have dancing with the wrong partner.Smile say thank you and move on..And at all times show respect and good manners...This also applies to invitations to dance. If a follower says no. Say thank you and move on, You never know she might ask you next time(i hope if she doe's you accept). Respect and good manners in the milonga for the few hours we are there cost nothing and can make the experience so much better..
So one could interpret this to mean that the leader merely proposes his preference, but the follower is the one who ultimately decides what it will be.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
In this scenario, yes, you could look at it that way.
Or, you could reverse it. She's interested in close embrace and moves in for it, he pulls away/backs off/makes it clear that he wants to dance open...so they dance open.
The point is, both have made their preference known, and a mutual agreement is reached so that neither has to do something that makes them uncomfortable. You could look at it as whoever proposes the embrace has the disadvantage...or maybe not. As Sub said, if one partner proposes the embrace with confidence, I'd wager it more likely that the other partner will accept it.
Furthermore, there are usually opportunities to change the embrace mid-dance if one is so inclined. While this would seem to favor the woman once again (we typically think in terms of the woman blocking getting back into close embrace), I don't think this is the case. To open up or not is largely the man's perogative...and it is the man's responsibility (choice!) to switch back into close. He doesn't have to close back up, and can go so far as to block her from trying to initiate it on her own.
There are opportunities--both missed and taken--on both sides to determine the embrace. It is, truly, a negotiation.
The common assumption seems to be that men are, by default, more (only?) interested in close embrace, and that women are the only ones who can feel uncomfortable. I don't think that's the case, and it hasn't been my experience.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Bravo! Your teacher has taught you well!
And I can speak from experience with her (not one-on-one...from a workshop which focused largely on the invitation and acceptance to dance), that while the man has the opening gambit, and it is the follower's decision to dance open or not...that the follower also has a responsibility to dance in the style determined by the man. He sets the tone, and she accepts and adapts. ...but not if it makes her feel uncomfortable...
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
Bravo! Your teacher has taught you well!
And I can speak from experience with her (not one-on-one...from a workshop which focused largely on the invitation and acceptance to dance), that while the man has the opening gambit, and it is the follower's decision to dance open or not...that the follower also has a responsibility to dance in the style determined by the man. He sets the tone, and she accepts and adapts. ...but not if it makes her feel uncomfortable...
hehe, thanks!
Yes, I think maybe we discussed this before. What I found most interesting about her viewpoint (and when I met her teacher, I saw where she got it from) was that it wasn't so much about the traditional Argentine view of the strong male. It had more to do with the role of the leader itself, and the view of what tango is all about.
The assumption is, when two people come together to dance tango, they want to feel the music, and get right to it. They don't want to fumble awkwardly for the length of the song. When the dance begins, there is almost... an obligation... to dance your best. if you're not giving your all, it's not tango. Therefore, the leader chooses the embrace and the style. Why? It's not a power thing. The reason is, his role is to choreograph the dance, and to do his best for his partner he needs to dance in the style to which he is most accustomed.
And as you said, the follower's side of the bargain is to be adaptable. I've heard (from a different teacher) the leader/follower dynamic described as as similar to that of a writer/director and an actor in a play. The leader is the writer. Without him the play wouldn't exist. But the follower is the actor, the true art comes from her performance of the play. By accepting the dance, she accepts that she must read the lines of the play (no matter how badly worded they are
) but as anyone knows, just reading the lines doesn't make you an actor. It's the emotion, the delivery, and the improvisation when needed that make for the heart of a great performance.Sorry. I got sidetracked there for a second. What were we talking about? Oh yeah! The leader choosing the style.
I'm sure not everyone agrees, but I think that's where my teacher was coming from. Of course there is still negotiation that goes on, and leader skilled in many different styles might choose depending on their partner.
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Yes - I was explaining this stuff (as best I could) on Sunday.
From what people have said, I suspect this is one of those clear regional differences in the way AT is danced.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Or, perhaps it's overthinking what most people do naturally? Perhaps we're talking about the same thing, and expressing it different ways?