another tailsuit question

[ballroomdancertoo]

Can anyone tell me where the cumberbund position should be on the suit? There are cumberbund with holes and some without holes. Also, does the cumberbund suppose to wrap around the waist 180 degrees or shorter. I wish there was a sight where there's a diagram of sort to figure out what goes where.

 

[Laura]

A tail suit doesn't have a cummerbund, but it has a waistcoat. I believe that the waistcoat attaches to buttons sewn on the tailsuit pants.

A cummerbund is that "wide belt" of folded/pleated material that goes at about the level of a belt on regular-waist men's pants. It is generally worn with a tuxedo, or with tails when "black tie" formal dress is in effect.

Ballroom competitors wear "white tie" formal dress, with a white bow tie and waistcoat rather than a cummerbund. The waistcoat is basically a little white vestage of a vest, and isn't pleated or folded like the cummerbund.

(By the way, "white tie" is considered more formal than "black tie." A "black tie" outfit can be anything from a tailsuit with black tie and cummerbund to a tuxedo to a dark suit worn with a white shirt and a "quiet" looking tie.)

If you are renting or buying non-dance formalwear to wear while dancing, that introduces some problems with look and fit. For instance, the shoulders will ride up and the back of the jacket won't fit right in dance position. These problems are serious enough that it is not recommended to wear a non-dance-tailored suit for competitive dancing. It is far better to wear a dark cardigan sweater with a white shirt and black tie (not a bow tie, a regular tie), or wear a dark sweater vest or tailored vest with the shirt and tie.

 

[Chris Stratton]

As Laura said, what is worn with a tailcoat is a sort of fake waistcoat. Location wise, only the points should extend below the front of the jacket, the rest should be hidden except at the center. This may require relocating buttons or elastics from where they were installed, especially if the suit was made to measure or bought second hand rather than fitted in person by the tailor. There are also several varients of fake waistcoat out there - the common ones that get attached to the trousers before the jacket is put on, others that are pre-attached to the jacket and open in the middle, and probably possibilities beyond that - I'm sure someone's worn a full front one such as supplied with wedding rentals (but don't whatever you do look at pictures of wedding tails, as they always get the waistcoat too low, and put the collar wings incorrectly outside the bowtie)

 

[ballroomdancertoo]

Thanks for the info again Laura and Stratton. Re the collar wings (flaps?), are those the part that flips over like the ears of the dog? How should they be, behind the white bow? I bought one that sticks way out so the bow is under it. Please elaborate.

 

[Chris Stratton]

Use your iron... on low and with a wet towel in between if the collar is plastic.

 

[ballroomdancertoo]

excellent! thanks!

 

[Al Gisnered]

(Snip). Re the collar wings (flaps?), are those the part that flips over like the ears of the dog? How should they be, behind the white bow? I bought one that sticks way out so the bow is under it. Please elaborate.

Depends on how modern you want to be. Look at photos of gents from most of the last century. The the collar is quite high and the wings are generally over the tie. In the last half of the century, collar heights shrank and the wings dropped behind the tie.

Wear your wings above your tie and, if anyone remarks about it, tell them that you take all your sartorial tips from Masterpiece Theatre.

 

[Chris Stratton]

Depends on how modern you want to be. Look at photos of gents from most of the last century. The the collar is quite high and the wings are generally over the tie. In the last half of the century, collar heights shrank and the wings dropped behind the tie.

The wings might be located vertically above the tie, but they should not be covering in front of the bow.

 

[Al Gisnered]

The wings might be located vertically above the tie, but they should not be covering in front of the bow.

Absolutely - if they droop, they should be tucked behind the tie. They should project out like - well - wings!

Drooping can be a problem with a fabric collar - not enough starch, or melted starch. Which is why celluloid and plastic were adopted as the material of choice.

 

[Another Elizabeth]

Location wise, only the points should extend below the front of the jacket, the rest should be hidden except at the center.

Only if you wish to look shorter than you are. In my opinion, on a well cut tailsuit, the waistcoat does not show below the coat when you are in dance position, creating a clean line from shoulders to toes. (This was a pet peeve of Fred Astaire's, as well, so I am at least in good company.)

 

[Porfirio Landeros]

I've heard a few professionals say that they don't want ANY of the white from the waistcoat peaking out from the bottom of the jacket, and I tend to agree... just looking through pictures of the recent top pros you can see that the waistcoat is practically invisible.

 

[Chris Stratton]

Only if you wish to look shorter than you are. In my opinion, on a well cut tailsuit, the waistcoat does not show below the coat when you are in dance position, creating a clean line from shoulders to toes. (This was a pet peeve of Fred Astaire's, as well, so I am at least in good company.)

Depending on the angles, the points of the waistcoat may fall between the points of the coat and thus be visible. But the general lower edge of the waistcoat should not be showing. (Falsies may have a straighter lower edge than an actual waistcoat would.)

 

[Joe]

The only white of the waistcoat (vestette) that should be showing is what is between the front panels of the jacket.

 

[ballroomdancertoo]

I've seen "waitcoat" that have very deep "points". I think I saw one on the japanese movie shall we dance just before the main actor goes to compete. Anyone knows or seen these waitcoats?

 

[White Chacha]

Glad I saw this thread before making the button holes in the waistcoat I got from Chrisanne. I looked at it the night before the MIT comp and decided I was too tired to deal. I'm not like Chris, putting final stitches in the tail suit in the car on the way to the comp ;-)