anybody else find that they know many "pieces" of dancing, but with gaps in between?

[yippee1999]

Like they say, the more you learn, the more you realize how much you have to learn (or something like that!)

Anyway, I've come to realize that I know alot of partnerwork patterns, and "pieces" of things, but that I also have some "gaps" that I feel need to be filled-in. I wonder if part of my issue is that I've never really stayed with one school for very long or taken a long-term series of classes and progressed with one teacher only. Rather, my preference has been to try out different salsa schools, so like I took beginner classes on and off as my schedule permitted with say two schools, then jumped to advanced beginner with another school.... took a few classes there. Then went back to school #1 and took their Intermediate I classes, went to two other schools and took a few Advanced Intermediate, and a ladies styling class here and there.

But there are certain things I've just NEVER been taught anywhere. For example, I've never really been TAUGHT how to dip, or what to do during T-stances, or how to know the exact cue for a T-stance. I've also seen a number of women doing something that looks like a side T-stance, and they sorta do a quick step and simultaneously whip their head back. Then there's women doing a free spin I guess you'd call it, and their arms quickly tap the sides of their thighs and then come back up over their head. What I've been doing is keeping a list of all these specific things I haven't learned, but would like to, so that I can bring them up during privates.

Has anybody else found this... that they have little "gaps" of knowledge, and what is your approach for filling-in those gaps if you've been taking classes for a while now, but never learned those certain moves?

 

[Twilight_Elena]

I don't do much salsa any more, but the same thing goes for ballroom. Yes, I feel there are some areas that I haven't touched yet. I think it's only natural, since (as you said) the more you progress the more things you have to learn.

T_E

 

[saludas]

"Dancing happens between the steps"....

 

[devane]

But there are certain things I've just NEVER been taught anywhere. For example, I've never really been TAUGHT how to dip, or what to do during T-stances, or how to know the exact cue for a T-stance.

That's why private lessons and speciality DVDs for spinning & Styling exist. In the casual group lesson it would be impossible to cover all these aspects. If you're lucky you may get a detailed explanation of certain moves but it depends where you are learning. You may be learning in a bar where the atmosphere is that of socialising and having fun. The art-form/science/hardwork of dance is on the back-burner. Yes, eventually this type of tuition will leave gaps in your dancing which will become obtacles in being a better dancer.

I see people trying to copy a sequence with double spins and dips when the girl has no training in spins. When the guys dips the girl, he dips himself and almost falls on top of her. I was in a class where the girls dipped without ME :shock: . The previous move was a travelling double spin for the girl. The girl would finish in a variety of different places out of time with the music and then would do the move (the dip) without me being there. This wasn't just with one girl. I would point out that these girls are not taught spin classes.

I won't do a sequence with a dip in it only if I'm with a really good dancer. I just lie to the others saying my back is sore (which is true when it's gets pulled on).

There is more to dips than copying what you see. Some dips are illusions in that the movement of the head make it appear bigger. Also in some dips the girls is supporting herself which could be missed without it being pointed out to you.
What about posture issues?
What about safety issues?
You can't just add in a dip "ok the 5,6,7 is a dip like this" and expect it to look good. These are specific skills that have to be worked on.


I'm not blaming the students who can't do it but trying to do moves like spins and dips without proper training is not nice to look at.

These things are gaps in your dancing skills. That's why it's awful to see doing moves out of their league when they could be learning something that will improve their dancing. But then again these things are what makes a great dancer: closing the gaps by finding out the answers and working on it.

I wouldn't even blame the teacher because the enviroment in which you teach will depend on how you teach. Get a private lesson, a dvd, help from a better dancer or start a thread


ps
No time to proof read this. English may be my first language and accent but I'm prone to typing sentences that don't make sense.

 

[MacMoto]

But there are certain things I've just NEVER been taught anywhere. For example, I've never really been TAUGHT how to dip, or what to do during T-stances, or how to know the exact cue for a T-stance. I've also seen a number of women doing something that looks like a side T-stance, and they sorta do a quick step and simultaneously whip their head back. Then there's women doing a free spin I guess you'd call it, and their arms quickly tap the sides of their thighs and then come back up over their head.

Can't quite picture the "tap & back up" arm thing, but I think these things tend to be covered in styling (and maybe "dips & tricks") workshops rather than regular classes in my neck of the world. We don't have any regular ladies styling classes here (things may be different in NY, of course), and very little styling is included in regular turn pattern classes. Most styling stuff I use were either picked up from workshops or from watching other women dance at congresses etc.

 

[noobster]

But there are certain things I've just NEVER been taught anywhere. For example, I've never really been TAUGHT how to dip, or what to do during T-stances, or how to know the exact cue for a T-stance. I've also seen a number of women doing something that looks like a side T-stance, and they sorta do a quick step and simultaneously whip their head back. Then there's women doing a free spin I guess you'd call it, and their arms quickly tap the sides of their thighs and then come back up over their head. What I've been doing is keeping a list of all these specific things I haven't learned, but would like to, so that I can bring them up during privates.

Has anybody else found this... that they have little "gaps" of knowledge, and what is your approach for filling-in those gaps if you've been taking classes for a while now, but never learned those certain moves?

1) Ask someone. Privates are really good for this (I think it's good that you're writing down a list of things you want to know, like "how to be dipped" etc., so you could bring that in for the teacher). But you could also try hanging around after a group class to ask the teacher for help on a specific question. Especially if there's a practice session right after, often the teachers will hang around for a bit and that's a good time to bring stuff up.

2) Watch people. I think some of the things you're mentioning may not be specific "syllabus moves" but just stuff that people come up with that spreads through watching, copying, embellishing, passing on. Dance memes or whatever. If you like the hip-touch-to-head move, try it out! If you want to improve your T-stances, sit out a few dances, watch some other women, and then 'try on' some of the stuff you've seen. Just MHO, but I don't think details like that are really a great use of a private. For the amount I'd pay for a private, I'd want to make a significant improvement on a core issue - balance, posture, following, etc. - not just pick up some assorted styling details.

If you're worried about how it looks, try first with a friend in a practice session, or in front of the mirror at home. I don't personally have any qualms about trying little moves like that on the floor for the first time... but then I'm not very concerned about what spectators might think of my dancing. I recognize that that probably puts me in the minority.

(Interestingly, on the subject of dance memes, I seem to be incorporating stuff without knowing it. Last night we were watching this one dancer, and my friend said, "Look, she does the same thing with her head that you do." I was like, I do that? Lol. I must have osmosed it from watching somebody else (not this girl as I'd never seen her before).)

 

[naturallove]

I'd agree with everyone that privates, congresses/workshops and social dancing are the way to go.
I haven't gotten around to privates yet, but I've heard that privates from a good instructor are amazing! Actually, a friend of mine went to a private with a top instructor, and I mentally jotted down everything they said and have been trying to make those corrections in my dancing. :raisebro: Anyway, the private is one hour of YOUR time and often the instructor can tell you what you need to focus on--filling in the gaps.
Congresses and workshops give you new and valuable perspectives on many things--whether from new spinning techniques or classes in dips and tricks. And it gives you the chance to practice what you've learned that day, something I think is pretty important in terms of retention.
Social dancing--I'm unafraid to ask someone whose style I admire how they did certain things. You'd be surprised how nice some people are, and how approachable.

 

[Sagitta]

I know someone who keeps on wanting me to do dips, tricks, and try things out with her and she's pretty good. Find someone like that and you have an opportunity to learn stuff without lessons... ;-)

 

[naturallove]

I know someone who keeps on wanting me to do dips, tricks, and try things out with her and she's pretty good. Find someone like that and you have an opportunity to learn stuff without lessons... ;-)

I'm also lucky enough to dance with partners who not only try their new turn patterns on me, but who know I'm pretty thick-skinned. Some of the guys I dance regularly with will tell me if I'm not following something (e.g. keep spinning rather than stopping). I also asked one or two of them to help me with an issue I am having (with holding out my hand for my partner rather than being asked for it).

 

[salsamale]

...
Anyway, I've come to realize that I know alot of partnerwork patterns, and "pieces" of things, but that I also have some "gaps" that I feel need to be filled-in. I wonder if part of my issue is that I've never really stayed with one school for very long or taken a long-term series of classes and progressed with one teacher only. Rather, my preference has been to try out different salsa schools, so like I took beginner classes on and off as my schedule permitted with say two schools, then jumped to advanced beginner with another school.... took a few classes there. Then went back to school #1 and took their Intermediate I classes, went to two other schools and took a few Advanced Intermediate, and a ladies styling class here and ther
e....
Has anybody else found this... that they have little "gaps" of knowledge, and what is your approach for filling-in those gaps if you've been taking classes for a while now, but never learned those certain moves?

Similar to your approach, I have sought out a variety of instructors to learn the basic steps: some in club lessons, some in regular drop-in classes, and one in a progressive class. I did this to make sure I didn't miss anything in this beginning period, and to get 2nd (and nth) opinions on the proper way to do things.

Guess what? Almost every instructor had a different take on the simplest of things, such as arm motion in the basic, how to lead a simple CW turn, how to lead a CBL, etc. Their dance styles are also very different when they social dance, in how they interpret the music. My only conclusion is that I am probably still missing some details, and I can always use another opinion, and another instructor to show me the basics. Lots of advanced salseras/os and instructors here on DF .

Eventually, I think I will want to invest in a private lesson, with an instructor I trust the most, and whose dancing style I like the most.

 

[noobster]

I haven't gotten around to privates yet, but I've heard that privates from a good instructor are amazing! Actually, a friend of mine went to a private with a top instructor, and I mentally jotted down everything they said and have been trying to make those corrections in my dancing. :raisebro: Anyway, the private is one hour of YOUR time and often the instructor can tell you what you need to focus on--filling in the gaps.

I'd worry that whatever advice your friend got wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for you. For a while I was splitting the cost of privates with a friend of mine (so they were more like semi-privates, one-on-two), and we consistently got opposite advice (I should bend less, she should bend more; etc.).

Guess what? Almost every instructor had a different take on the simplest of things, such as arm motion in the basic, how to lead a simple CW turn, how to lead a CBL, etc. Their dance styles are also very different when they social dance, in how they interpret the music

That is so true. I've taken privates from 3 different teachers and they all have totally different techniques for basic things. When I am in the lesson I try to follow what they are telling me but afterwards on my own I try to assess which bits I found beneficial and which bits would be best forgotten.

I have to say that I have been to a number of group lessons and found them to be of almost no benefit whatsoever for me (unless I took them as a leader). I'd learn a pattern, which as a follower I didn't need to know (and I actually think it is counterproductive for me to know the pattern because it just encourages me to anticipate). I didn't improve my following (because I knew the pattern), I didn't improve my posture or stability (because most of the lesson is at a slow pace so the leaders can learn the steps), and I didn't improve my spins or 'styling' (because the lesson focused on the pattern). In addition the leaders in the lessons were usually far less advanced than the average leader I'd find on the social floor.

So I basically gave up on groups completely and just concentrated on social dancing with an occasional private when it fit in my schedule and I could afford it. (I've found a monthly private is similar in price to 4 weekly groups and it is worlds better for my dancing.)

 

[yippee1999]

You know noobster, I can relate to alot of what you say about group lessons. You're absolutely right, in that during group classes, what I feel we as followers are doing is memorizing what our half of the routine or pattern should be, and then we basically just "do it" without really allowing our brains to consider how we might have naturally responded to the man's half of the equation. So you're right, we end up just anticipating. On the other hand though, I think by learning turn patterns (especially at a number of different schools that will all have their own patterns/styles) it does introduce us to the wide range of turn patterns out there, so that they can all be pulled when needed from our memory bank. Sorta like... the more foreign languages you know, the more likely that you'll be able to guess what a certain word is in another language you really don't know, simply due to your broad knowledge of languages in general.

But I like the approach you've taken for yourself. 99% of my training has been in group classes, and I've only had one private thus far. Maybe I too will try cutting down on my group classes, and concentrate more on privates, and see if I see an acceleration in my overall improvement. One thing I've realized is that in all my classes I've never been taught any of the basics.... how to carry myself, center myself, how to spin, etc. So yeah, I think I'm going to focus more on privates right now, or else more specialty type group classes. I also aim to rent a private studio every now and then to practice on my own. I've done that once thus far... a friend and I rented a studio to practice together, and while I waited for him to show up, I turned on the CD player and practiced, and I have to tell you, I was LOVING IT.... it was my first time ever that I could see myself from head to toe while dancing, and without any eyes but my own to watch/judge me. And so feeling less self-conscious because I was alone, I could immediately sense how invaluable this time was.... I was really able to look at myself and see what I liked/didn't like. When I practice at home however, I can only myself from the chest up in my wall mirror. So the full length mirrors in the studio made a HUGE difference.
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[noobster]

One thing I've realized is that in all my classes I've never been taught any of the basics.... how to carry myself, center myself, how to spin, etc.

See, I suck at that stuff. I have always liked to dance and had generally good body movement, but I never did gymnastics or martial arts or anything that would teach you how to be aware of your center. The first time I tried to spin I practically fell over. I definitely needed somebody to help me with balance/center specifically, or I never would have been able to get out on the floor. In addition to that I definitely had a tendency to anticipate (still do when I get stressed out on the floor), and that was something that I think was improved by privates but would have been worsened by groups. I think if you managed to get to a proficient level of social dancing just by taking groups, you probably started out with better overall balance than I did and maybe the approach you took was fine for you.​

But privates are just a whole different way of looking at dancing, and overall I would definitely recommend them for anyone at any level. You can be at the wrong level for a given group class and get nothing out of it, but in a private the instructor (if he is a good one) will come to where you are and give you exactly what you need.

I would also advise finding someone you like and then sticking with that person for at least ten lessons. The first lesson with someone is always half gone by the time they figure out where you are at and what you need. By going back to the same person you can pick back up about where you left off, and also s/he will know if something is a perennial problem you need to work on or if you are just having an off day or you twisted your ankle or whatever.

On the other hand I think after you've had a bunch with one person it may be beneficial to switch up so you can focus on something else. E.g., I tried a woman (because my regular teacher was male), who had a completely different focus, style, and approach. I'd been taught to generate momentum for spins from the shoulders, with my feet mostly in place; but she used a big old foot-prep, with her foot way out in front. I guess a lot of the time there are many techniques that will give good results and it is just a matter of finding one or two that are right for you.​

 

[Sagitta]

I'm bugging guys to lead me and that's making a difference in my dancing. Perhaps trying the opposite role will help see thing from a new perspective.

 

[yippee1999]

Yeah, I've heard this before, and it does intrigue me... this notion of learning the opposite role. But I'm afraid that it might "mess me up" somehow? Also, if I WERE to try some classes as a lead, do you think just a few would be enough to give me a sense of what it's like to be in the lead's shoes?
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