Appropriate vs Inappropriate Lead Gaging

[JournalInTime]

Tango attracts many intellectuals and perfectionists. Add to that the tendency for instructors to imply that their way is the only correct way and you have a recipe for rampant judging instead of giving each other some room to be different.

Indeed, tango suffers from serious One True Way-ism:

The most serious form is, "Anything that isn't the way things were in Buenos Aires during la Edad de Oro del tango isn't real tango." That conveniently ignores the issue of the records of that time in place being extremely poorly kept and full of contradictions, and the oral history being exaggerated and idealized. That time and place probably had a lot of the same stuff these critics are pooh-poohing today.

Hidden in the previous is origin-denialism, which is thinly veiled racism. Never tell a certain kind of dancer that tango has roots in gaucho dance and African dance, and that tango music imported rhythms from every kind of contemporary Caribbean and Latin dance music. Too Black or at least too Brown for them.

Related to the last two is fusion-denialism. To hear some people tell it, tango went bad the day it went to Paris and was influenced by things like ballet and waltz musette. Others blame the influence of jazz and swing dance. A few these days blame the TV, because dance-competition shows often mix up styles for ratings. Apparently, evolution is bad.

Yet another form is Style Wars: escenario, fantasia, milonguero, nuevo, salon, . . . the specific sub-styles of particular barrios, and even individual milongas and confiterias . . . all of it. It's the tango equivalent of either political party membership or flag-waving for some place most of the flag-wavers have never been.

And all of these forms congeal in, "The way [influential person] describes tango is the right way." The person in question could be a milonguero, a teacher who developed a teaching system or brought tango to a wider range of people, someone who systematized tango steps, a performer, or the author of a book. Doesn't matter. We get their version as gospel.

My coach recently said something I agree with: The worst danger tango faces is that it will get boring. Dancers need to break rules, play, hybridize, fuse, and adapt. If that were the default for classes and milongas, there would be more dancers and a better prognosis. Let the One True Way people set up their One True Way activities for fellow cult members; do not let them dominate the dance.

 

[Rabbit]

And all of these forms congeal in, "The way [influential person] describes tango is the right way." The person in question could be a milonguero, a teacher who developed a teaching system or brought tango to a wider range of people, someone who systematized tango steps, a performer, or the author of a book. Doesn't matter. We get their version as gospel.

As I said elsewhere, I'd prefer to delete everything and restart from "this music and set of movements are agreed by very approximate consensus to be characteristic of tango".

 

[Brummbaer]

It is absurd to imply that everyone in Buenos Aires dances the same way or subscribes to the same codigos...

Yes, but they do - based on their experience(s), or what they looked for. There's obviously a spectrum with a median. As we see here, some dancers are 'liked'; others, not so much.

I'm not rubbishing any of the published works, or blogs, but that's their take on it - and what they sold to their home audience. It's a good thing we don't base it on Valentino. But then someone asks you about the stereotype...

 

[JournalInTime]

As I said elsewhere, I'd prefer to delete everything and restart from "this music and set of movements are agreed by very approximate consensus to be characteristic of tango".

I wouldn't hate that.

I've blathered here that after the usual group lessons that exist less to teach tango than to socially integrate people who want to dance tango ("Meet partners at your level," "Introducing teachers who could coach you in private," "Here's a school where you can show up in the evening and dance," etc.), I was taught tango as movement particles: pauses, weight shifts, displacements, pivots, level changes, axis changes, etc. The music used for this often wasn't traditional tango . . . it was anything in 4/4 time that tango newbies wouldn't be distracted by, and downbeats vs. upbeats, syncopations, rhythms, etc. were kind of swept under the carpet. We were placed on the line of dance in class; that amounted to "go counterclockwise, don't back up, don't have collisions." To me, that's tango and all the rest is tangology for the addicted.

You don't need to know the specific combinations of particles that some call steps or patterns, nor do you need to know the names that somebody or other gave to those steps or patterns, nor do you have to learn the systematization of any of that stuff (that's for teachers, not ordinary dancers). You don't have to learn codes more exacting than "be excellent to each other" and "go counterclockwise, don't back up, don't have collisions." It'd be good to eventually get used to golden-age tangos, because that's what you'll get at most milongas, but you don't have to become a tango musicologist. You certainly don't have to learn Argentine history or Spanish, nor learn the names of masters or milongueros or current performing couples.

 

[itwillhappen]

The male lead??? Well….

For hormonal reasons, men are statistically stronger, more aggressive and are in prison 20(!) times more often than women. More overweighted too.
Thanks to sophisticated lessons, it is no longer necessary to lead with physical strength on the dance floor. And even in front of the location you rarely fight with your rivals.

As a result, men are in general nowadays not well positioned for tango; there are more suitable leisure activities, which is often reflected in the lower number of participants. From a demographic and democratic perspective, it is clear that women will decide the future of tango. Only if women want to dance with men does a complex special case arise that creates lots of issues...

 

[Bailango]

I think this is related to the choreo vs improv performances disagreement we had in the past. I think IT IS possible to be able to align the music with figures that are made up on the fly (improv) but it’s a very tough skill set (and hence why there are choreographed performances). I personally can’t do it yet but that is a level I aspire to, since it takes a very good mastery of all the tango movements + musicality + creativity.

I don’t remember the disagreement. What is a figure to you? To me it is a pre-determined set of steps that form a sequence. When I am dancing steps, to an outsider it might appear like I am making figures on the fly. They are not. I am listening to the music and that along with the current step determines the next. Kind of like how chatGPT works. Let’s I decide to enter molinete, depending on the music I might cut it off after 1/4th or 1/2 and follow it up with a different step. Or neighboring couple has moved into the space after half rotation, need to quickly improvise without disrupting the flow.

 

[tangoing]

I don’t remember the disagreement. What is a figure to you? To me it is a pre-determined set of steps that form a sequence. When I am dancing steps, to an outsider it might appear like I am making figures on the fly. They are not. I am listening to the music and that along with the current step determines the next. Kind of like how chatGPT works. Let’s I decide to enter molinete, depending on the music I might cut it off after 1/4th or 1/2 and follow it up with a different step. Or neighboring couple has moved into the space after half rotation, need to quickly improvise without disrupting the flow.

Ah I guess the disagreement wasn’t with you but with others within your Diaries thread, my mistake.
We also have different definitions of figures, I see it more as a sequence of movements that usually aren’t as common (so it can be either choreo or improvised). But yes with your definition, trying to fit a choreographed sequence into a song usually doesn’t align and imo is a bad/boring way to dance tango, once your past the beginner stage anyways.

Lots of classes teach figures, even intermediate/advanced ones, but usually (if the teacher is good) it’s about the core concept within the figure so you can add it anywhere in your dance rather than copy paste the entire sequence into a song.

 

[TTanguero]

I actually like when I get a follower who has that condescending attitude that my lead is wrong in class (when I know my lead is actually fine), since I just end up calling the teacher over and have he/she just dance the movement with me and they usually say it’s great/fine so it implicitly implies it’s the followers fault as soon as they say that lol.

Yeah, I was really lucky with my beginner classmates, but I once made the mistake of doing a workshop when I was a one-year beginner and my then-gf was a 7-year dancer. She kept telling me I wasn't leading the thing properly, I believed her and called over the teacher to help. The teacher asked me to lead her; I did, and she said "Yep, that's it" before leading then-gf and spending several minutes pointing out the things she wasn't getting ...

 

[daisy_r]

I actually like when I get a follower who has that condescending attitude that my lead is wrong in class (when I know my lead is actually fine), since I just end up calling the teacher over and have he/she just dance the movement with me and they usually say it’s great/fine so it implicitly implies it’s the followers fault as soon as they say that lol.

Yeah, I was really lucky with my beginner classmates, but I once made the mistake of doing a workshop when I was a one-year beginner and my then-gf was a 7-year dancer. She kept telling me I wasn't leading the thing properly, I believed her and called over the teacher to help. The teacher asked me to lead her; I did, and she said "Yep, that's it" before leading then-gf and spending several minutes pointing out the things she wasn't getting ...

This is an interesting discussion. There are people who seem to go to lessons expecting their partners to be able to achieve perfection on the first try, which is really silly because if you could do that then why would you be attending the lesson?

On the other hand I am always a little wary when a teacher dances with me and gives me nothing to improve on because I know that I am not perfect. If the move is working that's great but I'm sure it can be better, so when a teacher says it is fine I try not to take that to mean that I'm perfect, instead I try to hear "it's good enough for now" and keep practicing to try to make it more fluid, more comfortable, etc...

In my experience, the really good teachers are the ones who can figure out what their students need to hear, and what many students need more of is confidence. Students aren't going to gain confidence if the teacher is constantly pointing out their mistakes, but if the teacher says "you're getting it, it's working" that little bit of extra confidence can eliminate plenty of issues caused by hesitation and tension.

I suspect that the teachers in the above situations might have been able to tell that your followers were being too bossy for their own good, I'm sure it happens all the time. It doesn't necessarily mean the technical issues were due to the follower (maybe so, maybe not) but this is a way to head off a discussion that isn't constructive, which leads into my next point: criticisms can make things worse rather than better, even if those criticisms are technically correct. There is a difference between being right and being helpful.

Sometimes people ask me "what do you think?" after they've attempted the move once or twice, and unless it's a complete train wreck, I'll just ask them to keep going, if I have feedback I will let them know but I try to give them a minute or two to get comfortable, because I think it's better that they have a chance to adjust things for themselves before I open my mouth and distract them with what I can feel.

It's a tricky subject though because I think asking for feedback and being able to give honest feedback is important and it can be really beneficial, but I admit that it can also go wrong very fast. I think the key is to always try to treat your dance partners with respect, even if they are friends or romantic partners, even if they are less experienced that you, even if they are much older or younger than you.

 

[JournalInTime]

Teachers, specifically, are in a pickle when it comes to giving feedback:

Criticism, however merited and however polite, will drive away a significant percentage of students: Those who believe that paying money for a leisure activity – as contrasted with things like driver education, and certifications and degrees that they can parlay into future earnings – entitles them to a uniformly positive, even fun experience. They receive criticism poorly and walk away from that teacher, who now has less business (and who, if they work for a studio and cost it enough business, might be asked to leave and lose a job . . . yes, I've seen this). "Serious" learners will understand that criticism is part of what they paid for and, as long as it is polite and constructive, appreciate and learn from it. But let's not delude ourselves into believing that serious learners make up even a significant minority in the typical tango class.

So, teachers have an economic motivation to hand out praise. Serious learners implicitly grasp that praise is relative, some variation on "You're doing better than before"; they don't interpret it as blessings from above that they've achieved perfection. Unfortunately, casuals – the ones driven away by criticism – tend to see the slightest praise as exactly that kind of benediction. Whereupon they stick the topic in question in their mental trophy case and press the teacher to move on to the next topic. Thus we get the people who proudly claim they've "done Tango I through VI" and are now experts. Then they go out into the world, cause their partners pain and inconvenience, and have accidents on the dancefloor . . . and proudly name their teacher to anybody who cares to listen, which doesn't do the teacher's reputation any good, with its own economic consequences.

Of course, the world isn't separated cleanly into "serious learners who appreciate and learn from criticism, and realize that praise is always relative" and "casuals who expect only praise, which they interpret as their teacher confirming their mastery, and who snub teachers who offer anything but praise." Some serious learners still let praise go to their head; some casuals want only praise but know in their heart that it's a bit hollow. This makes life even tougher for teachers! Now it's as clear as mud who they're dealing with and what the consequences of dealing with them might be.

I've taught as a very junior assistant, which was fine because I could deflect everything to the real teacher I was assisting. I've been the sole teacher a couple of times in lowest-level open classes, which was still fine because open classes have no ongoing student-teacher relationship. However, I've been approached several times with money and asked to teach privately, and I just can't make myself do it. The main reason why is that with a mere 11 years of experience, though intensive, I'm incredibly junior next to the local teachers who average almost 30 years of experience, and I feel it would be dishonest to take money from them and pretend I'm even 1/3 of the teacher they are. However, in close second place is that fact that I want nothing to do with trying to navigate the criticism-praise minefield.

So, I stick to being just another social dancer. I am strict about giving no feedback unless asked, and when asked, I just give "canned" feedback that I have received from my teachers – less, "You could do X or Y," and more, "My imperfect understanding is that one wants to do X or Y. Hope that helps!"

 

[OthinkingDesign]

Fascinating topic!!!
I think my process would be better illustrated as a flow chart, but I'll try and explain the process using words.

1. I open the embrace, close my eyes and wait for the follower to fill the space
   • If they enter in close embrace, they are indicating they're a close embrace dancer
   • If they enter in open embrace, they are indicating a preference for open embrace dancing.
2. Once the follower has chosen how they fill my embrace, I'll hold them and listen, I won't lead a move/weight change or do anything but hold them for the 10-30 seconds it takes for the song to begin the main motif. It's at this point I'm listening to their breathing, monitoring their heart beat, noting where tension in their body is and sometimes "I can hear what they are thinking".
   • Beginners stiffen up or shuffle and often breathe quicker. When this happens I dance more simply, slower, with clearer leads.
   • High connection dancers, I sense them "listening back". They wait patiently and we happily hold each other. With these dancers I will aim to maintain the highest level of connection possible throughout the dance.
   • Dancers primarily interested in vocabulary will be decorating already. With these dancers I throw out illusions of connecting and aim for a fun, energetic and fancy dance.
   • There's a fourth weird category where I hear "nothing" or feel like my attempts to connect are blocked. I don't bother trying to connect and have to assess further how to proceed.
3. I increase pressure in my embrace, take a deep breath in to indicate we are about to begin moving, and we take our first step.
   • A beginner will take a consistent step - they almost always do the same size step and can't fathom the idea they can be different. I will often feel them stop short of what I've led.
   • Intermediate level dancers understand there is variation in step sizes and will attempt to follow as close as possible. I feel them follow but the quality has variance that tells me they're intermediate. Usually it's the musicality or a tiny speed difference, or they lose their reference point on my body.
   • Advanced/experienced level dancers will take a step, exactly the same distance, speed and texture as I have led.

After a single step, I've worked out whether my parther dances close/open embrace, whether they are beginner/intermediate/advanced and whether they lean towards connection or vocabulary - (musicality is not an option with me, I always dance musically).

There's more that I do and can do, because I can unconsciously track hundreds of bits of information from my partner while dancing. I would describe my overall approach to dancing as highly customised, for each partner.

 

[Be Present]

Fascinating topic!!!
I think my process would be better illustrated as a flow chart, but I'll try and explain the process using words.

1. I open the embrace, close my eyes and wait for the follower to fill the space
   • If they enter in close embrace, they are indicating they're a close embrace dancer
   • If they enter in open embrace, they are indicating a preference for open embrace dancing.
2. Once the follower has chosen how they fill my embrace, I'll hold them and listen, I won't lead a move/weight change or do anything but hold them for the 10-30 seconds it takes for the song to begin the main motif. It's at this point I'm listening to their breathing, monitoring their heart beat, noting where tension in their body is and sometimes "I can hear what they are thinking".
   • Beginners stiffen up or shuffle and often breathe quicker. When this happens I dance more simply, slower, with clearer leads.
   • High connection dancers, I sense them "listening back". They wait patiently and we happily hold each other. With these dancers I will aim to maintain the highest level of connection possible throughout the dance.
   • Dancers primarily interested in vocabulary will be decorating already. With these dancers I throw out illusions of connecting and aim for a fun, energetic and fancy dance.
   • There's a fourth weird category where I hear "nothing" or feel like my attempts to connect are blocked. I don't bother trying to connect and have to assess further how to proceed.
3. I increase pressure in my embrace, take a deep breath in to indicate we are about to begin moving, and we take our first step.
   • A beginner will take a consistent step - they almost always do the same size step and can't fathom the idea they can be different. I will often feel them stop short of what I've led.
   • Intermediate level dancers understand there is variation in step sizes and will attempt to follow as close as possible. I feel them follow but the quality has variance that tells me they're intermediate. Usually it's the musicality or a tiny speed difference, or they lose their reference point on my body.
   • Advanced/experienced level dancers will take a step, exactly the same distance, speed and texture as I have led.

After a single step, I've worked out whether my parther dances close/open embrace, whether they are beginner/intermediate/advanced and whether they lean towards connection or vocabulary - (musicality is not an option with me, I always dance musically).

There's more that I do and can do, because I can unconsciously track hundreds of bits of information from my partner while dancing. I would describe my overall approach to dancing as highly customised, for each partner.

Wow! I find this whole topic so fascinating and interesting. I absolutely love the way you do thid and describe it.

 

[Bailango]

Once the follower has chosen how they fill my embrace, I'll hold them and listen, I won't lead a move/weight change or do anything but hold them for the 10-30 seconds it takes for the song to begin the main motif. It's at this point I'm listening to their breathing, monitoring their heart beat, noting where tension in their body is and sometimes "I can hear what they are thinking"

So you are the guy that holds and chokes the ronda at the entry points A couple that enters the ronda and doesn’t move; blocks the couple already in the line of dance behind them and other couple in the line waiting to enter. It causes big traffic jam.

I don’t know if there is a codiga. There should be one. It is a very bad floor craft not to quickly advance when dancing near entry points. Whether you are already in the line of dance or joining it make space behind you. The more crowded the ronda the more important it is.

 

[Bailango]

Wow! I find this whole topic so fascinating and interesting. I absolutely love the way you do thid and describe it.

Once the follower has chosen how they fill my embrace, I'll hold them and listen, I won't lead a move/weight change or do anything but hold them for the 10-30 seconds it takes for the song to begin the main motif. It's at this point I'm listening to their breathing, monitoring their heart beat, noting where tension in their body is and sometimes "I can hear what they are thinking".

1. • Beginners stiffen up or shuffle and often breathe quicker. When this happens I dance more simply, slower, with clearer leads.
   • High connection dancers, I sense them "listening back". They wait patiently and we happily hold each other. With these dancers I will aim to maintain the highest level of connection possible throughout the dance.
   • Dancers primarily interested in vocabulary will be decorating already. With these dancers I throw out illusions of connecting and aim for a fun, energetic and fancy dance.
   • There's a fourth weird category where I hear "nothing" or feel like my attempts to connect are blocked. I don't bother trying to connect and have to assess further how to proceed.
2. I increase pressure in my embrace, take a deep breath in to indicate we are about to begin moving, and we take our first step.
   • A beginner will take a consistent step - they almost always do the same size step and can't fathom the idea they can be different. I will often feel them stop short of what I've led.
   • Intermediate level dancers understand there is variation in step sizes and will attempt to follow as close as possible. I feel them follow but the quality has variance that tells me they're intermediate. Usually it's the musicality or a tiny speed difference, or they lose their reference point on my body.
   • Advanced/experienced level dancers will take a step, exactly the same distance, speed and texture as I have led.

I don’t subscribe to elaborate process of synchronizing the breathing, etc. I don’t know where it originated. It is not needed nor essential. I don’t need to monitor my partner’s breathing pattern etc. I can get all that information within first few seconds and a few steps. Dancing is about movement. Not meditation. You can dance meditatively through the movement.

I don’t need to take deep breath or shallow breath to begin moving or take the first step. My movement projection is very clear. There are two signals that take place. First is a clear indication of get ready to move or we are about to move. For lack of terminology I will call it a prep. The second signals the actual start of the physical movement. The reason for the split is for a few reasons I could hold suspended pause and not move physically. Or I could change the direction. It all happens in split second. There is no conscious sequencing in the brain that’s going on.

Fascinating topic!!!
I think my process would be better illustrated as a flow chart, but I'll try and explain the process using words.

1. I open the embrace, close my eyes and wait for the follower to fill the space
   • If they enter in close embrace, they are indicating they're a close embrace dancer
   • If they enter in open embrace, they are indicating a preference for open embrace dancing

The above, bit of contradicts the below bolded. I do let a follower decide how close of an embrace she wants to enter. For me it is rare and a novelty to run into a follower entering open embrace or open hold. That experience is not limited to local scene. I have danced as a visitor at local milongas in many places.

After a single step, I've worked out whether my parther dances close/open embrace, whether they are beginner/intermediate/advanced and whether they lean towards connection or vocabulary

The above I agree with. The initial embrace before taking a first step is not the final one. It is an indication of preference absent other information. Close embrace itself has varying degrees of how close or tightly a follower prefers. Sometimes a leader’s confidence goes a long way to make the follower feel comfortable being in close embrace. This gets negotiated and resolved quickly an after the first or second step on how tight of an embrace we are going to dance in. Some followers will be in a close tight embrace as soon as they enter the embrace first time. Some will make it more closer after the first step or two. Some will keep it close but loose. There are some followers who gradually progress from close embrace that is loose to one that is tight taking first half of the song to do so.

 

[OthinkingDesign]

A couple that enters the ronda and doesn’t move; blocks the couple already in the line of dance behind them and other couple in the line waiting to enter. It causes big traffic jam.

When you ring someone on the phone, do you start talking as soon as you dial the number? Or do you wait for the person to answer the phone before talking?

There is no point in talking if the message won't be heard, so I always wait for connection before sending information. I will admit maybe it causes some discomfort to the couple behind me, but a long time ago I noticed the ronda doesn't move until the compass of the song begins. Often you see people talking on the dance floor, exchanging the same shallow questions every time, so I spend that time holding my partner and silently enjoying the embrace

I do realise I can't spend 30 seconds waiting if the song has already started, but 10 seconds of dancing on the spot won't kill a person.

I don’t subscribe to elaborate process of synchronizing the breathing, etc. I don’t know where it originated. It is not needed nor essential. (...)

I don’t need to take deep breath or shallow breath to begin moving or take the first step. My movement projection is very clear.

The difference between a lunch bar and a fine dining restaurant, is how much care is taken for every aspect of the experience. A fine dining restaurant has standards and codes, custom cutlery with their brand name on it, a dress standard, a waiter who knows every dish on the menu and meticulous consideration for even the uniform colour pallete that goes from the roof colour down to the shoes of your waiter. A lunch bar puts your food in a paper bag.

Maybe the food tastes the same, but there's a reason why people will pay thousands and wait 6 months on a waiting list for a fine dining experience. For a person who has had thousands of dances, THEY NOTICE when someone has taken care to think about every little detail, they notice when someone has polished things. The dances you remember are far more than just the steps done, it is about the WHOLE EXPERIENCE, these are the ones that stay in people's memories for years, these are the dances I want to deliver.

If you want to synchronise to a high level and achieve the "one body, four legs" union or even transcendence, then you must think of both bodies being unified even on the breathing level. One day you might appreciate this sophistication, if you did, you wouldn't disagree.

Close embrace itself has varying degrees of how close or tightly a follower prefers. Sometimes a leader’s confidence goes a long way to make the follower feel comfortable being in close embrace.

Personally, close embrace WITHOUT CHESTS TOUCHING is not close embrace to me, I call this CLOSED EMBRACE.

I must admit I dislike this range because often this ends up with hands on the spine, which can reduce the amount of disassociation a person has access to. I only apply pressure to the spine if I want to lead ochitos or tell my partner "stop".