Are followers in smaller communities pickier?

[Tango Distance]

I have to work hard to get to a tanda with one or two of the good leads. Especially cuze I have white hair and some of the leads will dance with any young woman regardless of her ability.. because it strokes their ego to know more have her always be, more or less at fault if there an issue or hesitaiton.

I feel for you, it's nice when everyone can enjoy. Don't know if this helps: I do find it rewarding if I can get a newbie to follow something she has not learned yet. It gives me feedback that I'm actually leading something. So maybe for some (all?) of them it's not the cheap blame game ego trip.

Of course, there is the interaction with a pretty young thing, to the point of perhaps too much attention, aspect -- I definite see that's almost guaranteed to happen (not all the men are that way, but enough).

 

[Brummbaer]

I have to work hard to get to a tanda with one or two of the good leads

Just picking up on this - late. Depending on the invitation game in play at the milonga, and your objectives, then as a male lead, I have to work hard to get a tanda - sometimes. I'm old! The PYTs aren't queuing for tandas (not that I'm looking to dance with them on that basis). But then, after many years, we're also 'known'.

At a recent milonga a male follower I know came to sit and have a chat with me. He confided that he was actually waiting to get a tanda with the good dancer now sat next to him - engaged in deep conversation with the sisters. He'd been trying to 'catch her eye', but gave up. And then there are those busy on their phones... If you're not 'active' at the appropriate time, or before, then don't expect invites.

Later in the milonga a female acquaintance came over and asked if I could manage another tanda with her. (Yes!)

Depending on the invitation game in play (and respect that!), and the practicalities of the venue, we all have to be 'active' to get tandas. If that's strict cabeceo/mirada - use that - actively. A female follower we know positively glowers at prospective leads - and gets dances. Then, of course, there's chatting at the watering hole, or better, people you just 'know' socially, or sit with, or... If you're unknown at a venue, it is harder work.

And, agreeing with @Tango Distance, certainly invite newbies.

 

[opendoor]

A practica without teachers is still beneficial though..

Of course, you're right. However, terminological issues come into play now. In my area, no one would ever think of calling teacherless opportunities for rehearsal a "práctica." All the larger studios in my city open their doors to practitioners once a week. We call that simply practice time, or practice space, open floor. You have to bring your own music and pluck it in the PA, your own drinks, too. I have used this format for many years. Sometimes there were five couples present, sometimes it was just us. When several couples were present, you had to take turns with the music or coordinate with each other.

 

[itwillhappen]

I beg to differ, it has everything to do with the math. Please refer to my original 'perspective' offered..

Let me play the devil's advocate:

The follows that the "good leads" prefer to dance with are precisely the ones they come to the milonga for - it's a voluntary leisure activity, after all. All the other followers could be seen as beneficiaries, if they happen to get dance with them. And this is not a mathematical issue, but a social one.

Admittedly, a 2:1 lead-to-follow ratio makes it difficult. (And I don't find dissatisfaction pleasant and would stay away.) But for at least five years now, workshops for female leaders have been offered on every corner, at least here in the metropolitan area. One has to wonder why the ratio is still the way it is.

 

[Brummbaer]

no one would ever think of calling teacherless opportunities for rehearsal a "práctica."

Terminological indeed! If there was a teacher present, possibly, but not necessarily, a 'guided' práctica. We usually use the term where there isn't necessarily a teacher present, but maybe some experienced dancers, as just a practice space. You can call on someone for advice if required. Or maybe investigate some new 'step'? But a 'rehearsal' implies choreography and performance.

I suppose, historically (traditionally?) early prácticas were just informal places to practice dance and socialise, e.g. some male meeting place. A place to develop - but possibly no formal 'dancing master' (teacher) other than more experienced, or regarded as 'better', dancers. Possibly becoming the informal 'milonga' - but not forgetting the objective was to get the girl, when there was a shortage of women, not to dance with other males (as is sometimes seen as the objective in some circles).

I guess it's another broad, overloaded, term. We've also had prácticas after workshops where the teachers have come round and assisted. Also informal practice gatherings with no teacher. It's all down to that evolution of AT in different cultures, societies, experience and technical understanding.

 

[opendoor]

..I guess it's another broad, overloaded, term..

I do think we need to be sensitive to terminology here, as we're talking about a student's learning environment in the early years of their tango journey. I like the idea of offering a tiered approach to teacher availability, from privates to group classes, práctica (strict sense), and finally free practice space. This way, students can use the appropriate format at every stage of their development.

This comprehensive offering is of vital interest, especially in rural areas. I'm not very familiar with smaller tango communities, but I am with smaller BR communities in the east of germany. And these comprehensive programs are definitely available there.

 

[Tangogal]

Most of the "talented" people have previous dance experience and some already good fundamentals. I should know, I was one. I remember the days of answering the question "how long have you been dancing tango" and getting a WTF followup reaction.

Me too except I had danced as a child and quit as an adolescent. So hadn’t danced in decades and had no ballet experience. I frequently got the “but you must’ve done other dances?” Or “you must be studying intensively”. I just learned quickly and because my self-worth was not tied to my dance ability I was willing to look bad on the milonga floor.

 

[Brummbaer]

I do think we need to be sensitive to terminology here, as we're talking about a student's learning environment in the early years of their tango journey. I like the idea of offering a tiered approach to teacher availability, from privates to group classes, práctica (strict sense), and finally free practice space. This way, students can use the appropriate format at every stage of their development.

I agree. However we've all taken overloaded terms from another language, culture, and age, applied our understanding, and then complain when others misuse our definition.

I'd still disagree with your 'strict sense' of práctica - early prácticas probably wouldn't have a designated 'teacher' - just someone, or several, 'better'.

We all need to accept that there are tiers (strata) of milongas, some where strict, Argentine-derived, rules of conduct (códigos) don't apply, and others where they want to play that game. Hence 'practicalonga' (and other variants). Some are appropriate for beginners; others not. In a 'small community' it's more difficult to be exclusive, unless you wish to disappear as a historical relic. You may still have some despotic organiser insisting on 'one true way'.

 

[opendoor]

..still disagree with...

We certainly agree on the content, but do you always have to be that conciliatory, emphasizing cultural differences and showing yourself to be approachable in every direction? This way you avoid the confrontation. I grew up under socialist and social democratic governments. With their general openness and their boundless willingness to integrate, we have literally cultivated right-wing extremist parties. We should set the standards instead!

 

[Brummbaer]

We certainly agree on the content, but do you always have to be that conciliatory, emphasizing cultural differences and showing yourself to be approachable in every direction? This way you avoid the confrontation. I grew up under socialist and social democratic governments. With their general openness and their boundless willingness to integrate, we have literally cultivated right-wing extremist parties. We should set the standards instead!

I guess I found 'Europe', with so much diversity, and never bought into 'one true way' of Little Blighty. I'd also accept that a stopped analog clock is correct twice-a-day.

 

[TTanguero]

I frequently got the “but you must’ve done other dances?

It probably has more meaning when you're a follower. As a leader, I heard that a lot from followers, but never took it seriously. I just assume it's flattery designed to make a leader more inclined to keep dancing with them as they progress.

 

[Bailango]

Most of the "talented" people have previous dance experience and some already good fundamentals. I should know, I was one. I remember the days of answering the question "how long have you been dancing tango" and getting a WTF followup reaction.

That’s why I said “naturally talented”. Those taking up dance the first time without related background.

Having a background from different related field definitely gives a big head start to some. Others could have the same background and still struggle when taking up Tango or partner dancing.

 

[Bailango]

Of course, you're right. However, terminological issues come into play now. In my area, no one would ever think of calling teacherless opportunities for rehearsal a "práctica." All the larger studios in my city open their doors to practitioners once a week. We call that simply practice time, or practice space, open floor. You have to bring your own music and pluck it in the PA, your own drinks, too. I have used this format for many years. Sometimes there were five couples present, sometimes it was just us. When several couples were present, you had to take turns with the music or coordinate with each other.

Matter of how you label it and what the local norms are.

Over here the guided practica means there are instructors leading the practica. If advertised as practica it could mean teacherless. The term “guided practica” emphasizes a teacher led practica. If advertised as practica it depends whether an instructor has organized or it is non-instructor organized. In some practica the instructors are passive. Unless you go and ask, they are not actively participating evolved on the practica floor.

 

[Tangogal]

It probably has more meaning when you're a follower. As a leader, I heard that a lot from followers, but never took it seriously. I just assume it's flattery designed to make a leader more inclined to keep dancing with them as they progress.

Heard it mostly from other followers when, despite being slightly overweight and oddly dressed, (I was poor at the time and not into the tango style) I was dancing with the better, more experienced dancers including teachers.

I think the leaders were patting themselves on the back because they could “lead a beginner” to do all the fancy steps (Nuevo was in vogue). Obviously down to their great leading skills not my fast learning skills.

 

[brujo]

Let me play the devil's advocate:

The follows that the "good leads" prefer to dance with are precisely the ones they come to the milonga for - it's a voluntary leisure activity, after all. All the other followers could be seen as beneficiaries, if they happen to get dance with them. And this is not a mathematical issue, but a social one.

It's such a hard dance to learn to be a creepy dude at. Feels that there are simpler dances you can learn if all you want to do is hold someone young and good looking tightly.

It's always pretty surprising to me when I talk to ladies that would have not been left alone for a minute in zouk or bachata and they'll say things like "yeah, I often just get one or two tandas a night".

I think looks help for sure, but leads usually have a dance card of friends from class or familiar faces.