Are followers in smaller communities pickier?

While it does seem like a long and expensive trip sometimes, when I get to dance with a few of our good leads (male and female) it makes it all worthwhile. One good tanda works.
I'm not sure where your last sentence refers to.. I have leaders very discreetly inviting me to coach them a little when a choregraphed element goes a tad awkward. It's a cool thing to work together to make things smoother. It's a metaphor for life.
I just meant that you shouldn't see it as an obligation. If it's requested and you enjoy it, then of course you can do it. Especially if the milonga is more informal.

My ex-girlfriend and I once co-organized a workshop weekend, and that kind of thing might change your perspective on people who still want to learn something. Depending on the participant numbers, it doesn't even matter if they're capable of learning it. We didn't take on that kind of support role for our former teacher again.

My current girlfriend does things differently; she organizes an evening with with different teachers for our private workshop group from time to time. Only these stable six instead of the fifteen (mis)matched couples. And although half the women (learn to) lead, the group is strictly gender-balanced.
 
My ex-girlfriend and I once co-organized a workshop weekend, and that kind of thing might change your perspective on people who still want to learn something. Depending on the participant numbers, it doesn't even matter if they're capable of learning it. We didn't take on that kind of support role for our former teacher again.

What were the main problems with that? I usually find that most workshop participants, no matter how great the teachers are — unless it is explicitly couples-only AND with prior actual skill/experience-based vetting — tend to be a disappointing display of mediocrity, and I've discussed it with/overheard such sentiments by said teachers. Which is why I always avoid going without a set partner, unless I'm doing the organiser a favour by filling in to help balance the roles.

It's really, really annoying when the teachers have to spend 50 - 75% of their time shoring up the basics/foundations necessary for the workshop topics, when the participants should themselves be solely responsible for learning that in their own time.
 
when the participants should themselves be solely responsible for learning that in their own time.
Well, you gotta learn somehow. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know. And it also needs someone to tell you what you're doing wrong. If you could do it already, then you wouldn't be there. In the past, as a beginner/novice, I've checked with organisers about required skills.

unless it is explicitly couples-only AND with prior actual skill/experience-based vetting — tend to be a disappointing display of mediocrity
See also above.
Which is why I always avoid going without a set partner,
Indeed. It is, after all, a partner dance. And, as frequently observed, it can be follower heavy - especially with smaller communities. It's great if the organiser role-balances. I sometimes volunteer to partner someone if required and available. Moreover the expectation is to change partners sometime to practice some move, although it's usually better if life-couples suffer together initially.
 
It's really, really annoying when the teachers have to spend 50 - 75% of their time shoring up the basics/foundations necessary for the workshop topics, when the participants should themselves be solely responsible for learning that in their own time.

They should communicate the prerequisites clearly then, otherwise how are the students supposed to know if they're ready for the workshop or not?
 
What were the main problems with that?
To keep workshop costs down, all the traveling teachers I know rely on local support, and even then, retirement planning is a foreign concept to them.

And many tango dancers are happy to dedicate their time and resources (rooms, accommodation, transportation, DJing, etc.) to their hobby. Problems arise when you have to actively recruit enough participants... and potentially compete with other organizers. I haven't actually experienced any kind of learning outcome validation yet; a serious assessment of the participants' initial skills only once. And of course: not just in small communities that not only the followers picky.

We avoid all of this with a private workshop group. I'm currently envisioning a concept where some of the classes are taught in our living room, while others gather in the lounge or dining room. I'm also getting the outdoor sauna ready. But for next time, we've rented a suited room for a common workshop part.
 
To keep workshop costs down, all the traveling teachers I know rely on local support, and even then, retirement planning is a foreign concept to them.

And many tango dancers are happy to dedicate their time and resources (rooms, accommodation, transportation, DJing, etc.) to their hobby. Problems arise when you have to actively recruit enough participants... and potentially compete with other organizers. I haven't actually experienced any kind of learning outcome validation yet; a serious assessment of the participants' initial skills only once. And of course: not just in small communities that not only the followers picky.

We avoid all of this with a private workshop group. I'm currently envisioning a concept where some of the classes are taught in our living room, while others gather in the lounge or dining room. I'm also getting the outdoor sauna ready. But for next time, we've rented a suited room for a common workshop part.
So, you're essentially doing what a local teacher should be doing, bringing in other, better, teachers to workshops. You're acting as a facilitator. That's what happens in small communities anyway if there are sufficient numbers and interest (and money), otherwise those people who can travel.

Smaller local communities here occasionally get good teachers and maestros passing through, or in the vicinity, so the local class/milonga gets a 'guest' appearance and workshop.
 
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We avoid all of this with a private workshop group. I'm currently envisioning a concept where some of the classes are taught in our living room, while others gather in the lounge or dining room. I'm also getting the outdoor sauna ready. But for next time, we've rented a suited room for a common workshop part.

I like that concept. It sounds very much like a "social gathering with workshop/s attached", with more emphasis on the former.
 
They should communicate the prerequisites clearly then, otherwise how are the students supposed to know if they're ready for the workshop or not?

Because at least some of those missing prerequisities are incredibly obvious? Granted, most dancers just don't think or learn properly.

Say, a workshop on boleos — I saw plenty of examples of bad stability and insufficient free leg fluidity. Arm leading, plenty of stiffness everywhere, et cetera...
 
Because at least some of those missing prerequisities are incredibly obvious? Granted, most dancers just don't think or learn properly.

Say, a workshop on boleos — I saw plenty of examples of bad stability and insufficient free leg fluidity. Arm leading, plenty of stiffness everywhere, et cetera...
It is also because prerequisites are not easy to frame in the first place. They are almost always expressed in one of three ways:

1. "Requires Tango N or higher." N is a class level at the studio giving the workshop or hosting the festival offering the workshop, or at the home studio of the person leading the workshop – something like "4" or "IV" or "401." As the only requirements to advance in class level are paying money for and sitting through all of the previous levels, and as there is no testing process or graduation system to hold anybody back if they haven't absorbed the material (that would be commercial suicide, and I've never seen a studio do it), there's no guarantee of "qualified" dancers having the technical skills that Tango N is meant to give in an ideal world. The workshop leader might know some of the students and guide them toward or away from the workshop, but in small places, the students are likely to have come from other small places all over or the leader might be a visitor, while in large places the leader is inevitably a visitor; so, the whole thing is double-blind.

2. "For [skill level] dancers." This [skill level] is something like "all," "beginner," "beginner-intermediate," "intermediate," "intermediate-advanced," "advanced," or "master." This relies on self-evaluation, because these things don't have any objective definition . . . most people overestimate their skill level. Once again, a workshop leader could in theory evaluate level and guide students toward or away from the workshop, but in reality it's double-blind, so that almost never happens. Occasionally, the leader attempts to work around this by expressing [skill level] in years, but that rates nothing useful, as dancing badly without correction can mean that the real difference between 1 and 20 years is 19 years of mistakes to erase – an effect amplified in smaller communities, where lack of exposure to regular instruction, broader concepts, and many dancers imparts the mistakes of an entire pedagogically inbred group.

3. "Must be familiar with [list of vocabulary]." This at least tries to itemize what's needed instead of using bought-and-paid-for class level or self-assigned skill level. The trouble is that it considers only vocabulary, which isn't half as useful as technical basics for judging capability. The workshop leader could say (to use the boleo example) "Requires supporting-leg stability, free-leg fluidity, considerable flexibility, and having internalized lead-follow with the core (can you dance arms-free?)," but that (1) won't fit in a little box or table that has space for "Tango IV," "Intermediate-Advanced," or "Ochos and Rebotes," (2) is another form of commercial suicide because we live in the TL;DR era where text longer than a few words is ignored, and (3) still depends on self-evaluation. And in small places especially, technique isn't seen as a thing to learn in itself . . . there's no instructor leading regular mirror drills, and people get obsessed with steps because they have four partners to dance with and find the same steps get boring.

Honestly, I think that prerequisites are hopeless for workshops, and that workshop leaders are doomed to spend some, most, or all of their time teaching missing prerequisites instead of the workshop's nominal topic. Giving them the power to kick people out? Commercial suicide again! So, they must shut up and go with the flow.

This is especially true in smaller communities, where nobody might be ready for the workshop's intended topic, and where the workshop leader is a visitor whose paycheck is thanks to that community's invitation and thus who doesn't dare get too demanding, much less show frustration. In that case, the workshop's supposed topic is just a fancy title, a lot like calling a fast-food combo meal "Royale" or "Gourmet." It's marketing, and a smart instructor knows they'll be teaching prerequisites with the pretense of getting to a topic they'll never get to. If they're charismatic and supportive, they'll be able to give everybody who attends a sense of value, though of course a few will grumble about not getting around to the topic. If they're business-savvy, they'll also try to negotiate follow-up workshops or private lessons that do get around to the topic.

This isn't meant as an attack on small communities – community size is just an added layer of difficulty to a general situation. I remember a follower sacada workshop by Pablo Inza and Sofia Saborido, who are decent teachers, at a big festival in my big city. Everybody present supposedly met the prerequisites . . . but not a single follower managed to execute sacadas properly, and Sofia spent all her time explaining to the followers how pivots and front steps (!) work, while Pablo mostly just joked around with the leaders, because "how to receive a follower sacada" isn't that interesting. I attended with a friend, not my usual partner, and was bored out of my skull, as my usual partner is already comfortable with front, side, and back sacadas in all directions on all sides, and I knew I was leading them correctly, so I was essentially the ballet barre for someone learning how to take a decisive step into my space.
 
They should communicate the prerequisites clearly then, otherwise how are the students supposed to know if they're ready for the workshop or not?
The best and most fair way I've seen this done ( in blues/fusion ) is via auditions for the more advanced classes. So the beginner / intermediate levels are open to most people who want to try but the advanced classes require you to spend a few minutes being audited by the instructor before the day before to make sure they have the right level or understanding. This does create more work for the instructors and is hard to do with classes that have a lot of people. But it ensures that everyone in a class are actually knows the material built on. You could be the most amazing tango dancer but not have milonga basics down, and the instructor is able to tell you to try again or a simpler class.

What often happens in a multi-week event is that the students are told no on the first week, they work on the stuff they need to work on and then on the second week they are usually ready for the class.

Some events even require you to send in a video of yourself to demonstrate that you're an intermediate level dancer, but these are often pretty exclusive and targeted events.

It's a bit harder to do in role-unbalanced groups because even if you're a lead that is able to do certain things you won't be able to do this as a follower, and vice versa.
 
Because at least some of those missing prerequisities are incredibly obvious? Granted, most dancers just don't think or learn properly.

Say, a workshop on boleos — I saw plenty of examples of bad stability and insufficient free leg fluidity. Arm leading, plenty of stiffness everywhere, et cetera...
If you're going to a workshop on boleos, then either you don't know and want to learn how to do them, or you've done some, but want to improve them, or learn some boleo you haven't done. If you can do them, then you don't need the workshop.

So the pre-requisite is either 'I don't know how to do them', or it's more advanced and it's about, say, improvement, or enhancement. (And I'd hope a workshop might give guidance on when one can do high boleos, or the situation demands low boleos, or just don't do them).

Given that there are no formal levels, it's sometimes difficult to set pre-requisites. In a mixed class you'd expect a whole range and a good teacher prepared to enable everyone attending to come away with something positive. But we frequently lack 'good' teachers.

I've just done some extra lessons on sacadas following some workshop. Not because I can't do them - and I've been doing them in some form for years, but because I realised I wasn't achieving what I wanted and we couldn't pick up what was missing. I'm certainly glad about those workshops years ago when I didn't even understand sacadas - and the maestro who carefully explained and demonstrated! And I'm looking back at those videos in a new light. Being able to do a sacada wasn't a pre-requisite for the workshop - and they were new to some attendees.
 
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The best and most fair way I've seen this done ( in blues/fusion ) is via auditions for the more advanced classes.
That sounds sensible and extremely cool! However, I'll be honest and say that I've never seen it tried for AT. Probably because next to nearly all other styles of dance where I live (Montréal, Canada), AT is unpopular, and so lacks the weight of numbers to prop up overhead such as . . .
more work for the instructors.
I know many tango instructors. I'm not sure that any of them would be willing to do that extra work for the tiny amount of money they're paid. In my tango community, instructors concerned with level go straight to teaching private lessons, and if those don't pay off, they stop being concerned with level.
told no on the first week [....] a video of yourself
Both of those things would be commercial suicide here. One instructor I know about tried saying "no," and now he isn't an instructor any more. Videos strongly imply taking time out to have a video made, possibly in rented studio space, and only pros do that here, which is an even smaller market that favors private coaches over workshops anyway.

(I could see all of the above working for private coaches for pros, or for competitive or just very dedicated amateurs, but smaller communities rarely have such a scene.)

To be clear, I'm not new and uninformed. I have studied for a couple thousand hours, I have worked for a studio, I have many tango teachers among my friends, and I'm even in training to become one. Dance instruction culture where I live is subject to the "the customer is always right" attitude that dominates Western and especially North American thinking, so each condition imposed (e.g., audition, video, or right of instructor refusal) knocks a sizeable chunk off what's already a small market compared to ballroom, club, and street dance styles. AT is barely scraping by here and needs every student it can beg, borrow, or steal, so it's standard practice to tolerate unready students if they can pay.
 
So the pre-requisite is either 'I don't know how to do them'
That's the only realistic prerequisite for any tango class or workshop: "I don't know how to do what is to be taught." If the instructor leaves "what is to be taught" at, say, "boleos," they must be ready to teach people who don't know boleos for any and every possible reason: lack of supporting technique, lack of supporting vocabulary, inadequate physical capacities (balance, flexibility, posture, etc.), previous poor instruction (by a real teacher, on the dancefloor, or from YouTube videos), and anything else that might get in the way of a boleo. If they aren't prepared to do that, they should be more specific than "boleos."
or just don't do them
(Overly specific aside: The omission of which is an excellent example of poor instruction. Every time I read a follower complaining that a leader led them in boleos inappropriate to the floor conditions, my brain replays the words of all of my teachers on the subject, which amount to: "A boleo is always a proposition, and it is the follower's job to choose a high boleo, a low boleo, a rebote on the floor, or to ignore the proposition." Only poorly trained followers close their eyes, ignore floor conditions, and do the boleo that they feel – which another follower could feel differently, because the movement relies entirely on personal calibration and is the least "one size fits all" lead in all of tango – instead of the boleo that's safe. "The leader is responsible for everything" is a copout here more than anywhere else . . . the follower is responsible for keeping her heel-daggers on the floor in tight spaces.)
I've just done some extra lessons on sacadas following some workshop.
Yeah, that's usually what workshops lead to for me. I attend, I absorb the ideas offered, I wait around while the teachers help people with prerequisites, and then I go to my private coaches and ask them for actual instruction in the ideas I absorbed and/or for more work on my own prerequisites. I don't use workshops to learn tango but to learn what I want to learn in tango, so I can get one-on-one instruction in something more specific than "getting better."
 
Both of those things would be commercial suicide here. One instructor I know about tried saying "no," and now he isn't an instructor any more. Videos strongly imply taking time out to have a video made, possibly in rented studio space, and only pros do that here, which is an even smaller market that favors private coaches over workshops anyway.

The more popular breakdown of workshops I’ve seen is 40% beginner, 40% intermediate and 20% advanced.

For an upcoming festival, they simply state “
Some Sunday workshops require an audition for participation (held Saturday evening).“ . People can still do the beginner and intermediate workshops but it ensures that the advanced classes serve only those who are at that level.

The videos are a bit simpler than that. And to be fair, it’s for longer multi-week immersion workshops rather than one off’s. It does guarantee that at least the folks showing up are all intermediate dancers.

For example, in the Myrtlewood immersion they first define what a dancer is:

Intermediate Dancers

- Are no longer are actively thinking about their basics while social dancing but instead are focused on their quality of movement and the quality of connection

- Have taken classes in at least 1-2 partnered dance styles outside of fusion and can reliably execute those basic patterns, musicality concepts, techniques, and aesthetics

- Are familiar with the concept of mode switching and can create distinct contrast in their dancing

Learning values: An intermediate dancer has a clear sense of the strengths and growth edges in their dancing and are dedicated to practice.

Advanced Dancers

In addition to what we’ve described above, advanced dancers:

- Demonstrate exceptional spacial, partner, and body awareness

- Have a rich understanding of 3+ partnered styles besides Fusion, or if fewer than that, have a dedicated additional movement practice (solo dance style, martial arts, etc.)

- Can switch modes seamlessly and musically within a single song while balancing style-specific movements & innovative fusing

Learning values: An advanced dancer understands that their advancement is just as much about deep refinement of the basics as it is about new techniques. They are hungry to expand and nuance their movement repertoire, and challenge the habits they have formed over the years.

Then ask you to submit a video based on that:

What we are looking for:
- A video of you fusion dancing in your preferred role, that you feel demonstrates the qualities we have outlined above.

- A high enough resolution video that we can clearly see your dancing and the subtleties of your movement

It probably works best for a dance that is a bit more seen than felt. With tango it will be harder to assess via video.
 

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