Are milongas getting shorter?

[itwillhappen]

There are other dances that do this and don’t have the same vibe - fusion, blues, kizomba. Even bachata and zouk to some extent. So it’s not the technical bits to me but rather the way that the other rules of the dance that stops a lot of people. I’d say tandas and navigations are bigger obstacles than proximity for a lot of people.

There is nothing easier than changing the rules. You can simply organize your own milonga without tandas or navigation - a format like that already exists here, known as "praktilonga." There are also all sorts of musical focuses, such as Neo, Non/Alternative, or 50:50 mixes, with durations ranging from 3.5h to 6h. However, the success and spread of progressive formats remains limited.

Personally, I have not much insight into other communities. However, my girlfriend switched from Kizomba to Tango because she preferred the community there. We also briefly checked out a West Coast Swing practice session but left quickly; it was likely a nice group, but the dancing there involved a lot of hopping around without much regard for the music.
It seems to me that in Tango, too, socializing and technical skill often stand in opposition to one another, unless some form of homogenization takes place.

That aside, Tango isn't exactly dying out overnight. It is worth considering which positive aspects outweigh the ones perceived negatively - after all, no one voluntarily engages in a leisure activity without a positive balance. And if you are surrounded by friends in your everyday life, you can simply bring them along to Tango and enjoy a lovely evening with wine and music, maybe dancing a bit.

 

[opendoor]

..I’d say tandas and navigations are bigger obstacles than proximity for a lot of people.

I think proximity is no obstracle at all. Its rather a magnet. Navigation may be a difficulty, but for a newbie everything is a challenge. So it doesn't play any role. But music may be of significance.
My theory is: you need a critical mass of role models to establish a flourishing dance sceen. And, the guys will go where the pretty girls are.

 

[Steve Pastor]

e also briefly checked out a West Coast Swing practice session but left quickly; it was likely a nice group, but the dancing there involved a lot of hopping around without much regard for the music.

Boy, what I’d like to write.

 

[itwillhappen]

I think proximity is no obstracle at all. Its rather a magnet.

In principle, yes - especially if the tango is meant to provide a physical closeness that is missing from the rest of one's life.
But very soon, the movement with a stranger's body really ought to feel pleasant or one will avoid it.

Navigation may be a difficulty, but for a newbie everything is a challenge. So it doesn't play any role. But music may be of significance.
My theory is: you need a critical mass of role models to establish a flourishing dance sceen. And, the guys will go where the pretty girls are.

As a rule, a milonga cannot be simultaneously attractive to both beginners and advanced dancers - at least not in a competitive context with limited resources. It is problematic if a milonga designed for beginners (featuring a short duration, short tandas, mixer games, simple music, and no ronda) can only succeed if a large number of "role models" are on hand.
The other way round: many people are drawn to milongas that end up becoming unpleasant for them.

My theory is: You need to network with those who currently have a need for it as well. And those tend not to be the long-time and established dancers.

 

[opendoor]

......I think proximity is no obstracle.. rather a magnet...

In principle, yes.. But very soon, the movement with a stranger's body really ought to feel pleasant or one will avoid it..

That contradicts my observations. All the followers I've spoken to about this, and there are many, say that they preselect. That is, they intuitively decide whether they'd like to dance with someone. And naturally, this threshold lowers over the course of a milonga if it isn't met.
But the second moment of truth, however, then is completely independent of that preselection.

 

[itwillhappen]

That contradicts my observations. All the followers I've spoken to about this, and there are many, say that they preselect. That is, they intuitively decide whether they'd like to dance with someone.

You should talk to more leaders; I do that too. After all, who actually goes to a milonga just to dance indiscriminately with any random person?

But the tango community is considered (here, at least?) to be relatively unfriendly. And I wonder if that might be because it feels more awkward trying to move together "chest-to-breast" than it does "swinging" at arm's length, with people that can't do that yet and perhaps never will be able to.

 

[opendoor]

You should talk to more leaders..

You've hit a nerve there, touchee. And that's why I have such fond memories of our recent in-person meeting.

..it feels more awkward trying to move together "chest-to-breast" than it does "swinging" at arm's length..

That's true, but its dimply due to boring biomechanical shortcomings. However, I was referring to brujo's post, which addressed fear of physical contact.

 

[brujo]

I think proximity is no obstracle at all. Its rather a magnet. Navigation may be a difficulty, but for a newbie everything is a challenge. So it doesn't play any role. But music may be of significance.
My theory is: you need a critical mass of role models to establish a flourishing dance sceen. And, the guys will go where the pretty girls are.

I think the container where the dance happens is also super important. I have talked to a lot of folks that are turned off by the salsa and bachata scenes in some cities because they just don't feel safe. Guys are creepy, obsessive and like to quickly get way too close.

As a guy, I look at things like house parties or a boat cruise and they sound super appealing. I would even go if I don't know too many people. But this might sound super risky for a more vulnerable person ( woman, transgender, maybe with a disability, sober , etc ). So knowing that the space is a safe environment to be held closely is super important over things like music and navigation.

Navigation is an interesting one. I been at house parties and alt tango events where people mostly navigate the tanda, and ones where the dancers tend to be more fusion or that don't do the navigation. And obviously in other dances that don't do the navigation like zouk or kizomba. And you start appreciating the entire room moving in one direction, specially in a smaller space. The energy is slightly more different and it's nice that you just have to really worry about watching out for one direction.

 

[opendoor]

..folks that are turned off by the salsa and bachata scenes in some cities because they just don't feel safe..

You might be right about that. On the other hand, during my salsa days, I found it very interesting to attend the pre-party classes in those dangerous bars in the red-light district. It's like breaking into an environment you wouldn't normally enter. But in my city, girls only get approached or harassed if they're dressed up super sexy. One difference from the tango scene is that at salsa parties, often 50% of the people who show up aren't dancers. These non-dancers are the problem, and you practically don't find them in tango (unless you want to be cynical). I do have witnessed a knife fight in tango, but thise involved were known lunatics who were shunned by everyone and quickly were banned from the venues. As far as safety is concerned, milongas actually are a bit boring as nothing out of the ordinary monotony happens.

 

[Bailango]

I think the container where the dance happens is also super important. I have talked to a lot of folks that are turned off by the salsa and bachata scenes in some cities because they just don't feel safe. Guys are creepy, obsessive and like to quickly get way too close.

There is a small minority of guys in Salsa scene that behave lecherously. I hardly see that in Tango or WCS. But that has not stopped Salsa from being most popular social dance. Despite its music being most challenging for uninitiated.

As a guy, I look at things like house parties or a boat cruise and they sound super appealing. I would even go if I don't know too many people. But this might sound super risky for a more vulnerable person ( woman, transgender, maybe with a disability, sober , etc ). So knowing that the space is a safe environment to be held closely is super important over things like music and navigation.

Intuitively this made sound right. Coming from a large metro and scene, I think people selfselect themselves. Take Salsa dancing for example. When I started it was super popular and main venues were in warehouses turned clubs in non-residential, non-commercial hubs of the city. Some locations were outright unsafe. Yet on Salsa nights you would see many women coming by themselves.

When the social (for any dance) is large, I have observed that women will not mind showing up by themselves. In general (not just dancing) women tend to prefer showing up with someone else or in a group, with some exceptions. That is my experience.

I have also danced in very conservative regions where touching opposite gender stranger would be a sacrilege in general. Yet it doesn't stop people who like dancing to do exactly that when they dance. That doesn't change how sensitive they are in non-dancing life.

Navigation is an interesting one. I been at house parties and alt tango events where people mostly navigate the tanda, and ones where the dancers tend to be more fusion or that don't do the navigation. And obviously in other dances that don't do the navigation like zouk or kizomba. And you start appreciating the entire room moving in one direction, specially in a smaller space. The energy is slightly more different and it's nice that you just have to really worry about watching out for one direction.

 

[Rabbit]

As a rule, a milonga cannot be simultaneously attractive to both beginners and advanced dancers - at least not in a competitive context with limited resources.

Of course it can. All it needs is a critical mass of sufficiently attractive people showing up.

 

[JournalInTime]

As a rule, a milonga cannot be simultaneously attractive to both beginners and advanced dancers - at least not in a competitive context with limited resources.

Of course it can. All it needs is a critical mass of sufficiently attractive people showing up.

Or just a good location, night, price, and floor.

In the past week, I've danced at milongas where the (rough) breakdown was "1/3 people who started tango at the studio hosting the event within the past six months; 1/3 teachers, performers, TangoBA competitors, and other local tango royalty who constitute the best in the city; 1/3 the rest of us." This is absolutely normal at two of the places where I dance regularly! I just returned from a milonga where a man who has a serious claim on "best tango leader in the city" was dancing with a Tango 101 beginner in front of me in the ronda . . . pretty typical stuff there.

While I've seen level-segregated tango events, they're usually not milongas, but variations on private parties and post-masterclass prácticas at the high end, and "free intro to tango" open houses at the low end. The idea that some milongas are "too advanced" to be beginner-friendly or "too full of beginners" to be fun for advanced dancers is a bit bizarre to me. Advanced dancers only merit that label if they are good enough to avoid bothering and being bothered by beginners; beginners can rarely see what makes advanced dancers advanced in order to be intimidated by them.

 

[opendoor]

As a rule, a milonga cannot be simultaneously attractive to both beginners and advanced dancers..

I see it differently. At least when I think about my own experiences:

As a beginner, you're naturally drawn to the significant and important milongas of your metro. You enter the venue with the same awe that ordinary people may have felt entering the temple in ancient Greece. You inhale the special atmosphere emanating from the entrance or stairwell. You hear the music, slowly getting audible. After sacrificing at the entrance desk, you symbolically cleanse yourself by putting on your dancing shoes. Then you slowly approach the inner, consecrated area from the outside and hold your breath. You look for a spot on the periphery. You marvel and study the behavior of all these beautiful people. You pick out dancers from the dance floor who inspire you and let them become your saints and role models..

Today, high-end milongas are rather boring for advanced dancers. But as a beginner, they were incredibly attractive. The images are indelibly etched in my memory, itwillhappen.

 

[opendoor]

..The idea that some milongas are "too advanced" to be beginner-friendly.. is a bit bizarre to me..

The character of milongas has changed: today, a milonga mainly caters to students from the specific dance school. They've degenerated into a social.
I quote an old milonguero from the PráctiMilonguero interviews on YouTube: "Back then, we danced at the milonga and the students watched us from a distance. Today, the students dance at the milonga, and we sit at a table on the side so we don't have to see the dance floor."

 

[Rabbit]

As a beginner, you're naturally drawn to the significant and important milongas of your metro. You enter the venue with the same awe that ordinary people may have felt entering the temple in ancient Greece. You inhale the special atmosphere emanating from the entrance or stairwell. You hear the music, slowly getting audible. After sacrificing at the entrance desk, you symbolically cleanse yourself by putting on your dancing shoes. Then you slowly approach the inner, consecrated area from the outside and hold your breath. You look for a spot on the periphery. You marvel and study the behavior of all these beautiful people. You pick out dancers from the dance floor who inspire you and let them become your saints and role models..

You are describing the experience of a cult initiate. I never bought into the cult and I remember my reaction: For what conceivable reason could these mediocre dancers think they're too good to dance with anyone?