I stand corrected.Well, you're wrong.
Its all about ME!
ME! ME! ME! :banana:
:notworth:
Argentine Tango: It's all about HER!
- Thread starter Ampster
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:notworth:
Br0nze
Active Member
My question is why would you limit this to Argentine Tango? Would this not be true for a Foxtrot or Waltz, or any other dance? I think it would, and I think it should, but am aware that more often than not, it isn't.
Plus, without a lead, they are just like us: fools dancing around on their own.
There is absolutely no difference between Argentine Tango and any other style of dancing [to me]. The only difference lies in the approach one takes towards it. I can easily make the argument for any other dance being as much of a philosophy and way of life as Argentine Tango (but I won't
). It's all "One body, four legs." It's always all about [her] the follow, no matter what the dance may be. The sole reason for dancing with a partner should first, foremost and always be dancing with the partner (follower or leader). Dance is about the connection two people share, regardless of whether it's Argentine, American or International Tango, or anything else. I would argue that getting a follower or leader to understand this kind of thinking and getting a leader or follower to embrace it and put it into practice is the most challenging. There is a great focus on patterns, steps, and looking flashy that people forget the true purpose of dancing: to connect with another person on an incredibly intimate level without having to be intimate. Dancing (and Argentine Tango especially) requires the leader to follow through and know stonily what s/he will be doing, and the follow to completely trust the leader and let go of all inhibitions and anticipations. That leaves both in an incredibly vulnerable state that is typically reserved for one's significant other and not a stranger. And this is very scary for most people, that kind of vulnerability. And so it manifests itself in different ways: forcing the lead, not paying attention to the partner, trying to be flashy.
A teacher of mine once told me, "There is no need for you to move all the time. It's okay to be still. Move when the music moves you, not just because you think you have to. And then she will move with you because you began the movement and she has to end it." I took it to heart and am working on perfecting it.... and advise anyone and everyone I teach (that understands) to do the same.
Ampster
Active Member
I wrote this in the context of AT because, I write only AT subjects, as it is something I have a modicum of confidence in. This is (after all) and AT forum. Being a former BR dancer, I also wrote this in AT context because of all the social dances, I particularly find this dance akin to improvisation where the lead/follow relationship really needs to be honed for the dance to work.
You are right in that it can be applied to any other dance. Provided it be modified and applied appropriately.
I would agree. This aspect is one of the most difficult things to achieve, most especially for the lead who has to initiate and sustain it throughout the tanda.
Fortunately, if you go to a milonga and watch the floor, this phenomenon does happen. When it does, it can be easily spotted and is a beautiful thing to watch.
Such is the beauty of AT in that, you DO try to achieve a level of mastery so you can dance this way with a total stranger. Its an AT thing.
If you care enough to dance for the other (which is the point of my OP), then this letting go with/for a stranger is very achievable.
You're teacher was right. Stops are steps. Here's my take on that principle: "The intricacy of simplicity."
Ampster, I agree with your comments completely. It took me 7 years of performing, many years ago, before I gradually came to the conclusion that dancing for my partner was far more satisfying, IMO, than dancing for an audience. When I found AT I thought it was the most expressive, creative and exciting dance I'd even seen. It was open embrace, and I took that path without reservation. When I discovered apilado, I again took that path, and never looked back.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
I have some of my best dances with this attitude; there are some songs eg A Evaristo Carriego where I take off, and babe, you better hang on because its going to be hellavu dance. The followers who get this have a wonderful dance and the others are albatrosses...
I know just what you mean. With some songs, the music really inspires you. It just needs to be with the right follower. Some really like this, while others absolutely hate it.
A lot of the times, I try to pick the follower based on the song.
One of my favorite sayings is "The bandoneon made me do it". With a partner who is skillful and trusting of me, I can just throw myself at the music, but it is not without concern or attention to my partner. Those always exist. I call it going over the edge - the edge of careful control of the movement - and finding out what happens.
My goal as a follower would be to become leaders' "go-to" follower for almost ANY song or stylistic preference. No matter what comes on... if I'm free, they're right there wanting to take advantage of that.
I should have that somewhat perfected in another couple of decades....
Seriously.. if leaders can dance these differerent variations and ideas, then followers ought to be able to master at least that many too, right? It sucks having one of my favorite leaders free for a tanda that I'm also free for, notice he's looking around, only to realize that he'd rather sit out than ask ME to dance that particular tanda because its not something he enjoys with me. Then when something he does enjoy dancing with me comes on, I'm taken.
Best to be versatile and be able to enjoy many different things.
Like I say... when I get this worked out... I'll let you know.. check back in, oh, 20 years or so....
So, do you (and by this I mean all of you guys who throw yourself into the music) get yourself into "disfavor" like I do?
My line is, "Sorry. The music made me do it".
A lot of times, I've sat out because I don't see anyone available whom I think will get it. (Bring it, ladies! Or, maybe not.)
And Zoops, for some of us guys, we look around and don't see anyone looking back.
See items #1 and #2 for possible insight into this.
Want to be popular guys?
Dance for her.
(Which thread is this?)
I only do this with partners who I am confident will be able to stay with me and enjoy it. If I'm not confident of that, I don't go there. I have only a few partners like that, but I adore dancing with them.
I am selective about my partners (and I dance with beginners when I think it will help them advance in their tango experience). However, the only time I am selective with a partner due to the music is when it's something like Pugliese, and requires my partner to be really attentive and skillful.
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
I always say that I don't want to dance for her; I want to dance with her.
Br0nze
Active Member
I understand why you posted it here. I enjoy playing devil's advocate, so to speak. One doesn't see this level of sophistication, if we can call it as such, for the ballroom dances.
I dig on your blog and your posts and thoughts, and thank you for sharing them. It seems as though the outlook you have on Tango I (do my best to) adopt to Ballroom. To me, the challenge [of BD] rests in finding the spontaneity in the predetermined figures. Just because one knows what a Promenade or a Weave is does not in any way take away from the overall objective of the step, and of the dance. I think very often people forget that, and overlook the very purpose of dancing; than is, the very purpose you stake out in AT--dancing for her (or as the case happens to be, for each other).
I also think the fact that AT doesn't hide this goal is what makes it so appealing.
In regard to Angel HI's post, I, as a English buff, see that 'for' and 'with' are two very different words conveying very different meanings, but in this instance I think they are being used as synonyms, or if not synonyms, then, at best, supporters of one another to such a degree where a distinction does not have to be made. One cannot dance 'with' her if one is not dancing 'for' her, nor can one dance 'for' her if one is not dancing 'with' her. Above all else that we must remember as dancers, and as leaders and as followers, is that dancing is a partnership, and in a partnership if one person doesn't hold up his/her end of the deal, everything suffers.
Touching on the point I mentioned earlier, on getting people to let go, I would argue that it is the scariest thing in the world to "just let go," and "turn off one's mind." We, as people, are so not used to it that when we have to do it, it frightens us. Dance, AT or BD, or any other style, requires [a] complete trust in the partner. That requires a complete trust in one's self first. I also think this idea is a bit covert in ballroom and more open and accepted in AT.
I completely agree with what Angel wrote. To me though this means that the woman has to be present. By that I mean that she really has to feel as though she is engaged with me, rather than some thing touching me but barely felt.
It can get complicated, though, because I know a few women whom I enjoy dancing with who respond so well to leads that they give adequate presence in that fashion.
I resort to a WCS example here, because it isn;t that old, and the woman who "blew me away" was a very high level dancer, Mary Ann Nunez. We were getting ready to do an exercise in class (other teachers attend Skippy Blair's intensives and just take the classes), and hadn't even taken a step yet, and Mary Ann was so THERE through the connection, and I was so glad to feel what is missing from 99% of the women that I dance with (I commented on it right away, I'm afraid!) that th ewhole group ended up having an extended discussion about "compression" and "resistance", etc.
These same things are present in AT, (or should be) but in a somewhat differnt form.
And a woman speaks to me using this vocabulary, or not.
She is either dancing WITH me, or just sort of.
It can get complicated, though, because I know a few women whom I enjoy dancing with who respond so well to leads that they give adequate presence in that fashion.
I resort to a WCS example here, because it isn;t that old, and the woman who "blew me away" was a very high level dancer, Mary Ann Nunez. We were getting ready to do an exercise in class (other teachers attend Skippy Blair's intensives and just take the classes), and hadn't even taken a step yet, and Mary Ann was so THERE through the connection, and I was so glad to feel what is missing from 99% of the women that I dance with (I commented on it right away, I'm afraid!) that th ewhole group ended up having an extended discussion about "compression" and "resistance", etc.
These same things are present in AT, (or should be) but in a somewhat differnt form.
And a woman speaks to me using this vocabulary, or not.
She is either dancing WITH me, or just sort of.
I love this thread, lots and lots of interesting perspectives to go around.
I feel like dance in general, especially Argentine Tango, are like little committed relationships that last until the embrace is broken and you decide to take a break or move on to the next partner. The techniques constitute the language that you use to 'speak' and 'listen' to your partner, and as such are pretty important if you are going to be interacting with your partner on any substantive level at all.
Once you have that much though every relationship is unique while it lasts, and involves reciprocation on both sides in order to really make it work. Sometimes you need to give while other times you need to receive, and everyone needs one or the other in varying degrees at various times. The really best dancers can 'communicate' well enough to be able to read the needs of their partners as well as their movements.
As for motivation though, sometimes you just need to dance, and it doesnt matter who with. Those are the times you find yourself alone in your room dancing to a great song with a brook or a ski pole, or when you are alone in the car making an knat out of yourself (while the people next to you giggle in amusement). Those are the times in Tango when you might find yourself connecting to the music perhaps a little more than with your partner, and hopefully when that happens you have a partner who understands, enjoys helping you connect, and is capable of letting you do your thing.
Other times though you have more of a need to connect with someone, and due to gender differences (and likewise differences in partner roles), how people achieve this connection manifests itself a bit differently depending on which role you're in. I don't want to be the one to open up the giant can of worms on gender role differences, but suffice it to say that in my opinion, most men who want to do something for their partner find joy in providing, while most women who enjoy the connection find joy in having a partner who cares enough to want to provide for them.
So I think an easy way to have said all of that would have been: sometimes you just need to express yourself, sometimes you just need to connect with someone, but you need the technical skills first in order to do either one successfully.
I feel like dance in general, especially Argentine Tango, are like little committed relationships that last until the embrace is broken and you decide to take a break or move on to the next partner. The techniques constitute the language that you use to 'speak' and 'listen' to your partner, and as such are pretty important if you are going to be interacting with your partner on any substantive level at all.
Once you have that much though every relationship is unique while it lasts, and involves reciprocation on both sides in order to really make it work. Sometimes you need to give while other times you need to receive, and everyone needs one or the other in varying degrees at various times. The really best dancers can 'communicate' well enough to be able to read the needs of their partners as well as their movements.
As for motivation though, sometimes you just need to dance, and it doesnt matter who with. Those are the times you find yourself alone in your room dancing to a great song with a brook or a ski pole, or when you are alone in the car making an knat out of yourself (while the people next to you giggle in amusement). Those are the times in Tango when you might find yourself connecting to the music perhaps a little more than with your partner, and hopefully when that happens you have a partner who understands, enjoys helping you connect, and is capable of letting you do your thing.
Other times though you have more of a need to connect with someone, and due to gender differences (and likewise differences in partner roles), how people achieve this connection manifests itself a bit differently depending on which role you're in. I don't want to be the one to open up the giant can of worms on gender role differences, but suffice it to say that in my opinion, most men who want to do something for their partner find joy in providing, while most women who enjoy the connection find joy in having a partner who cares enough to want to provide for them.
So I think an easy way to have said all of that would have been: sometimes you just need to express yourself, sometimes you just need to connect with someone, but you need the technical skills first in order to do either one successfully.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I think that a lot of how to achieve this is .... hmmm... a mutual friend has an interest in tantra, and she expresses this as "being present". It's about being genuinely focussed on the happiness of your partner.
And yes, you need technique, but that's not enough - you need to focus on your partner and it's not really easy to fake that. If you don't feel that connection, it's never going to be a magical dance.
And yes, I'm aware that I'm sounding like a bleedin' hippy. Sorry.