AT Lessons: What are you working on?

[Subliminal]

This thread has got to be incredibly intimidating to anyone new. I haven't read the whole thing myself. Is it time to start a new "what are you working on?" thread? This one has been growing to mammoth size for over 3 years!

I dunno. I didn't find the thread until Peaches told me about it, and it had been dead for months when I bumped it. I think it was useful for me to read through the whole thing. There is a lot of good info sprinkled through it.

 

[Subliminal]

@Sub

Maybe you can't feel imporovement of your walking, but your partner do.
Maybe you don't walk better that before, but you feel more relax while you do.
You are more into the music while you walk i.e. you feel that music more.

That's true, it's entirely possible. But I'm kind of looking for something I can measure myself, some kind of goal to work to.

 

[Mladenac]

That's true, it's entirely possible. But I'm kind of looking for something I can measure myself, some kind of goal to work to.

Why don't you ask your partners every time they tell you sth.
When we learn sth at classes I always ask them how it felt after doing exercise.

The more I dance the more I can feel myself and partners relating to me.

When I want to improve sth during the practicas I perform sth 10x for fi
ne tuning and talk with my partner about those elements I am performing
if she some who would comment.

 

[Peaches]

What the hell is natural about all that? It seems like with every stylistic thing people add, the walk becomes less natural. But if you just walk like you do on the street, that doesn't feel like dancing to me.

LOL.

I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you. I promise.

I so vividly remember my one of my first lessons, and getting the lecture about posture. Reach up like you're getting something from a high shelf...belly button in...not on toes...drop arms to sides...relax...stay forward... See? Isn't that natural?

Me: What the !@#%$ are you smoking that that's even remotely natural?!?!

Now, though, I can shift into my tango posture at will (I'll notice myself slouching while smoking, and correct things.), and it's amazing how natural it does feel.

IME, the same thing goes for walking. Walk naturally...but not your naturally...do this, do that, do the other...isn't that natural? Erm...no. And then...one day...you realize that walk does feel very natural to you. I don't know how to describe it, and I don't know what causes it. But one day, I promise you, it will feel very natural to you.

(Perhaps if only because after practicing it for years it's become second nature.)

Hang in there. *hugs*

 

[Peaches]

That's true, it's entirely possible. But I'm kind of looking for something I can measure myself, some kind of goal to work to.

Join the club, kid.

I had to give up on the whole milestone thing. In fact, I gave up on the whole goal thing. (Admittedly, that wasn't so hard. I'm not a goal-oriented person anyhow.) I had to learn to enjoy the journey. There was a certain amount of feeling wonder at the seeming progress, the frustration, the regaining, the confidence. The cycle of learning and progress became fascinating. And frustrating.

The only thing I can tell you is to have faith that you're getting better, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. One of these days you'll go to do something that you've done a thousand times already...and it will feel fundamentally different. It will just click. The movement will just feel completely different. And you will see that movement in a whole new light. Cherish those moments.

...or at least that's how I experience progress...

 

[ant]

.....there's a big gap in understanding between people who pick things up by feeling and those that don't. I think the key is context. I need to know why something works the way it does or I don't get it. that's real. ....

I feel the same way as you do. You learn something and then you find out there is 101 other ways of doing the same thing.

The conclusion I have come to is that there are certain fundemental techniques or muscle memories you have got to get into your body to enable you to dance to the music rather than just dancing steps whilst the music is playing.

I have now sorted out teachers that I beleive can get that technique in my body. I still go to classes where they have sequences but I look upon these more as fun than a learning process. The technques I am working on currently are:

- movement of the body through he core
- pivots with the correct spiralling and weight transfer technique
- walking in all its facets.

 

[bastet]

Join the club, kid.

I had to give up on the whole milestone thing. In fact, I gave up on the whole goal thing. (Admittedly, that wasn't so hard. I'm not a goal-oriented person anyhow.) I had to learn to enjoy the journey. There was a certain amount of feeling wonder at the seeming progress, the frustration, the regaining, the confidence. The cycle of learning and progress became fascinating. And frustrating.

The only thing I can tell you is to have faith that you're getting better, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. One of these days you'll go to do something that you've done a thousand times already...and it will feel fundamentally different. It will just click. The movement will just feel completely different. And you will see that movement in a whole new light. Cherish those moments.

...or at least that's how I experience progress...

So very true Peaches. I also gave up on the whole "goal" thing after a year and a half or so. I always recommend now that people not try and look at AT as "goal" oriented.

In AT, I tend to see myself visiting and revisiting topics and thinking of them as "layers", like an onion or a cake. Every time I look at a topic again, I'll find a different layer of it to explore, and it's much less stressful to think that way too!

 

[bastet]

I feel the same way as you do. You learn something and then you find out there is 101 other ways of doing the same thing.

The conclusion I have come to is that there are certain fundemental techniques or muscle memories you have got to get into your body to enable you to dance to the music rather than just dancing steps whilst the music is playing.

I have now sorted out teachers that I beleive can get that technique in my body. I still go to classes where they have sequences but I look upon these more as fun than a learning process. The technques I am working on currently are:

- movement of the body through he core
- pivots with the correct spiralling and weight transfer technique
- walking in all its facets.

totally agree ant.

 

[Mario7]

Again, I'm not looking for a subjective feeling. Maybe for you it worked that way, but not everyone is the same.

I'm a bit confused here. If the walk feels good to the man and it feels good to the woman..what else counts?,,A 'teacher's' admonition? ...and when it feels really great to both, what other consideration is there?

 

[Peaches]

I'm a bit confused here. If the walk feels good to the man and it feels good to the woman..what else counts?,,A 'teacher's' admonition? ...and when it feels really great to both, what other consideration is there?

Well, I think it can feel good to the man, and the follower...and the teacher, even...for a given level of accomplishment. But ideally you don't stop working on it and move to other things. You keep working at it. And then it feels better again. And again. So even if it feels good to you at one point, and your partners tell you it feels good...that doesn't mean it can't feel even better...if you keep working at it and, yes, taking a teacher's admonitions into account. The consideration is the knowledge that, as good as your walk feels now, you know it can be better, you know that you are only a beginner.

What's with putting "teacher" in quotes? Why the dismissive tone? It seems as if you have little regard for teachers and their expertise. Why?

 

[Mario7]

What's with putting "teacher" in quotes? Why the dismissive tone? It seems as if you have little regard for teachers and their expertise. Why?

That's a long, long story. It comes with spending decades learning how 'learning' is done...and personal experience in second language 'teaching/learning' (where 'teaching' is usually the biggest impediment)..also, how learners often (very often) mistake 'how they learned' ....unfortunately, there are very few books on the topic (lots of academic papers though)...Ivan Illich's "DeSchooling Society" might be one worth reading.
Haven't you noticed the slavish devotion to 'teachers' in the Tango communities? Often to the point where any dancer's self reliance or confidence in their own ability to master the dance is absent ...I get the impression that it wasn't that way in BsAs when the dance itself evolved as an art form directly from the culture the music and the dancers themselves. Sure, people took advice and learned from others but it hadn't yet turned into a 'profession' with all it's manipulation. If you haven't seen how the 'profession' works it's pressure on the 'students' then you need to open your eyes.

 

[Peaches]

OK, so there are separate issues at work. *shrug*

From personal experience, I can just say that some of the people who have eschewed teachers in favor of "immersion" and learning on the floor are some of the most unpleasant people to dance with. IME, the ones who have taken lots of lessons--private, mostly--are the ones who become truly good dancers.

I find great value in learning from teachers. But that's just me.

Yes, there is a lot of devotion in the AT world. I think it happens in the BR world, as well. (And I know it happens in the musical world.) *shrug* Human nature, I think.

 

[Mario7]

I hadn't finished my post when you were still writing yours..I like to look at what I post and then change a phrase or two...I don't use the preview feature cause it doesn't accomplish the same thing for me... anyway, sorry if you didn't get to read the final version before replying...it made no difference anyway, I think that your reply is well put, we just have a bit of a different take on it. ..nothing big

 

[Mladenac]

I'm a bit confused here. If the walk feels good to the man and it feels good to the woman..what else counts?,,A 'teacher's' admonition? ...and when it feels really great to both, what other consideration is there?

Walk may be pleasant but not technical enough.
Maybe at certain level some walking mistakes can be overseen.
But later when when more nuance come than proper walking is crucial (e.g. close embrace sacada, walking to the partners left side, proper rhythm demarcation, ...,)

 

[Madahlia]

Haven't you noticed the slavish devotion to 'teachers' in the Tango communities? Often to the point where any dancer's self reliance or confidence in their own ability to master the dance is absent ...I get the impression that it wasn't that way in BsAs when the dance itself evolved as an art form directly from the culture the music and the dancers themselves. Sure, people took advice and learned from others but it hadn't yet turned into a 'profession' with all it's manipulation. If you haven't seen how the 'profession' works it's pressure on the 'students' then you need to open your eyes.

Thanks for this, Mario7; I also find the god-like status accorded to some dance teachers a bit hard to stomach. I think it's much better for the community in general if this is kept in proportion and everyone is seen as somewhere on the continuum of progress but some much further along than others. Otherwise, teachers can have excessive power, whether truly deserved or not, and an elitist division of the community occurs.

However, and this may seem contradictory, beginners and intermediates don't usually improve fast without honest and objective help, and a capable and well-respected teacher is the best person to provide this. I don't think practice with peers will provide the same authoritative assessment and guidance for correcting errors. Just, as Ant says, shop around a bit first.