At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

[pianistamediano]

Admittedly, I first danced at milongas for two years without ever having any lessons.

This, I think, is the key. Having tried both salsa and swing, I will say that, personally, tango had the steepest learning curve in the beginning. And this is supported by anecdotes from several of the people I started dancing with, or met along the way, who ranged from having experience in several dances or were entirely new to dancing (social or performance), like me, who started all three around the same time.

I started dancing in salsa and swing socials after a few classes; I only dared to go to the milonga after a year - let alone dance. I think the first time I danced at a milonga was when a fellow beginner encouraged me to go on the floor.

 

[JournalInTime]

We tend to forget that for many people, it's the cool moves that matter . . . and only those. Nothing else. Nothing at all.

For tango, people come expecting things like colgadas, volcadas, cadenas with ganchos or back sacadas, and the whole world of stage movements like lifts, fricciones, and catching boleos midair with your foot to create barridas. When they learn that getting there takes years, after which you can't dance most of it at a milonga, they decide tango is too hard.

I think comparing music is interesting, but most people never delve into the music the way they hit the vocabulary. There's a reason why 3/4 of classes at festivals are on steps.

 

[Rabbit]

We should team up! Any idea?

Open source tango technique project (isn't most of it posted on these forums already?)

 

[Bailango]

Thanks for the affirmation and adjustment! I think what I'm really saying is, "In my experience, tango learners don't have the patience for a scientist. They come in expecting artists who'll give them feel-good, yes-you-can advice, not analysis, much less correction." I'd have tried teaching a long time ago if I'd met a few tango novices who saw the world analytically already. Most just want to be capable of tango escenario after three weeks.

May be there is a need for both and a room for both. It is not either or. Very difficult to find one instructor that can imbibe both with right balance depending in the level of the class. Nearly impossible.

Perhaps you can position yourself as “tango technician” or “tango mechanic”. Therefore not an instructor but someone who can help people fix little things to make their tango better. In fact if you use tag line “I am not an instructor” it helps in two ways. Existing instructors don’t feel threaten or see you as encroaching their truf. Might even send some of their difficult students your way. It is like saying I am not a car mechanic, but I fix your dents and bumps and scratches. The second way is tango dancers view you as Mr. Fixit. Not as a traditional instructor. You are goto person after they have learned the figures. You can also choose only to do privates at half or 75% rare of prevailing rate. That also emphasizes you are not instructor. Offer 30 minutes instead of one hour. The person may be feel better buying two 30 minute sessions in a week than one single one hour. The progress on things like technique is better in 30 minutes. Because you are helping fix only single or couple of elements. Doesn’t need 1 hour. It needs learning, then them going out and practicing it.

 

[Bailango]

We tend to forget that for many people, it's the cool moves that matter . . . and only those. Nothing else. Nothing at all.

But you don’t have to cater to all. There are enough leaders and followers who want to look good while doing the moves, become technically better, etc. You only need to cater to a niche. That should be sufficient. There should be at least enough to keep you occupied on your own terms. After all start it only as a side gig for now. You might be surprise how it grows in a year or two. You might even find copycats

 

[Bailango]

That is interesting because I would assume that salsa or tango are taught the same way in your and in my area. Honestly, I was so soooo frustrated with salsa when I started dancing after my divorce.

The atlantic doesn't make a difference with the basic step, you simply have to be able to hear the clave, and that at 180 bpm. Which tango beginner has to move after 3:3:2 in his first lesson. Even the word comes first after two years.

And the quality of movement is also so much higher in salsa, because arms, legs, hands and head ! move independently of each other, and that in fact controlled. In tango you freeze most of your joints and you are allowed to walk like a zombie: forward, backward, sidestep for three month.

And the most difficult: from the first salsa lesson on you have to pull up the corners of your mouth. In tango you are praised when your facial features slip away. The photo pages on facebook are full of tangueros whose faces take on the most bizarre expressions when they dance.

So, if you really describe salsa as easier, then it's the arrogance of the ignorant speaking (or you likewise want to hide the fact that you've also failed badly back then)

Without getting into details I unhumbly disagree

Most tango and salsa instructors as well as dancers agree that the salsa is easier to learn and start dancing. I had a number of salsa friends who tried and gave up tango. Both followers and leaders. Within a month or two. A few after six months. One or two for about a year. I am talking at least a dozen or more. How many stuck with it? Zero. Not one, not two, zero. All ages from 20s to late 40s. Women quit faster than men.

Talking to the instructors, they say the same thing. Salsa is easier as a dance in almost every aspect - to learn, to start dancing, to start going out social dancing, to ask people, not to get rejected, feel like you really had fun. Beginners hell exists in both. Salsa music is more complex and harder than the tango music for most people. People struggle to find 1 if the music is not familiar to them. That’s probably only where I see salsa as not easy.

I honestly think you are an outlier. There will always be a subset who are inclined to learn one dance easier than the other.

 

[opendoor]

..honestly think you are an outlier. There will always be a subset who are inclined to learn one dance easier than the other..

I can't answer that. Maybe you are right. Maybe my standards were/are too high, I don't know. Tango was my salvation in 2001. I got so frustrated with salsa, I accidentally strayed into a milonga and danced till dawn. And was I hooked!

..maybe a new start..

And salsa already was my second try. Before that I failed visibly and heralded with trumpets and fanfares at folkdance (balfolk). You have to know the choreo. I turned left when the crowd turned right and so on. It was just embarrassing. I already was pissed and my self-confidence was gone when I started taking salsa lessons. When I gave up salsa in frustration, tango stabilized me. Excuse me if I repeat myself, but tango was such a relief: with my head hanging low and at the end of my strength, I crept home after a salsa lesson. Through an illuminated window I saw people dancing in close embrace as in slow motion. I found my way in, took a woman in my arms and danced to (my initiation track) Bahia Blanca. Lately I found home. Everything was easy in tango, while salsa and folk dance were incredibly difficult.

..at the end of the pandemic..

At the end of the pandemic I joined a lindy hop class. Things went better.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

The mark of a good teacher is being able to think about what you do automatically and explain it in simple terms to someone who can't do it at all. The fact that I need paragraphs to do this is why I think I'm not ready to be a teacher.

So, maybe show don't tell?

 

[opendoor]

..Most tango...

They should for economic reasons.

..and salsa instructors...

They must for economic reasons.

...as well as dancers agree that the salsa is easier to learn..

Tango dancers do, because they are not fully aware of the difficulties in salsa.

..was seated up front in front of the orchestra. I turned around and saw an impressive number of people dancing to it. They seemed to be doing just fine.. But honestly, I doubt a large percentage of the dancers were even aware the music was in an odd time signature..

Finally someone speaks out what I always see. The majority of social tango dancers have a terrible sense of rhythm. So many confuse 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 or 6/4 time signatures, let alone rhythmic accents like 3:3:2 , síncopa, or marcato en 4. These people couldn't hear the salsa clave either, but would still be adamant that salsa was easier than tango. The rhythm section at timba plays counter and cross rhythms. No instrument emphasizes the strong beats. The rhythm of the clave arises in the dancer's head.

 

[Miradamiranda]

The musicality required to dance well in tango and salsa are very different animals. If someone in salsa doesn’t know where ‘one’ is and can’t hear the two-bar structures, especially when the clave is turned around, it makes for a very unsatisfactory and unpredictable dance. On the other hand, in tango, a big part of the ‘purpose’ is to show the music, to illustrate intricacies, dynamics, emotions, tension/release, to “paint the music in 3D”, so you definite need to connect to the music, you just don’t have to count in your head.

One of my old favorite salsa partners and I used to play around so much with the trust in each others’ musicality that we might use 6 different timings within the same piece with very clear transitions. Him leading on2, me leading him on2, him leading on1, me leading on1, and then the traditional Son timing if the music lent itself.
In tango these particular musical skills would be completely irrelevant.