Bad habits?

[tangomaniac]

You are so right about training and surprisingly pivoting has pushed even my caminata forward!
I started the systematic pivot training when I finally decided to learn the enrosques. I thought that to have my legs are crossed it is a very unusual posture for my body making it hard to maintain the balance. Therefore I started to train 5-6 days a week but just a few minutes per session. The options below are a selection of the ones I work with.

2 - left right leg
2 - turning to left right
3 - free leg is crossed fw parallel or crossed back
2 - degree of turn 90 180

During this process I have been thinking of why we are just talking about the caminata? Pivots are so much more versatile and complicated!

There is a left and right diagonal at the hips called the hip crease. The creases open by lowering the center of gravity from softening the knees. I lead big steps to help the follower feel which foot to transfer her weight. Small steps lead to B-I-G problems.

I try to keep the follower directly in front of me, like dancing latin. However, many women wedge themselves into my right armpit, which is a disaster. Our centers and feet aren't in alignment making it very difficult for the follower to do pivots. If she stays in front of me like a hinge on a door and the wall, we can now rotate directly for pivots. When we are off the alignment, our feet aren't lined up so sacadas are impossible. (A key has to be in front of a lock to enter. If the feet aren't in alignment, the "key and lock" aren't in alignment and the key (my foot) can't go into the lock (the space between the woman's legs.

My teacher also concentrated on biomechanics, understanding how the body moves. The biomechanics of a pivot are 1) rotate the shoulder, 2) rotate the hip, 3) the foot turns. Some women try to use my left arm as a wall for leverage because they can't turn. My arm goes limp because it's not my job to support her weight, especially because I have arthritis.

My teacher taught me how to dance, not do steps. Some people don't know the difference.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Exercises, yoga, and Alexander technique trained me to walk and embrace correctly. It became part of my muscle memory.

How did you like the Alexander technique? I've heard so much about it but am still unclear about how it works.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

However, many women wedge themselves into my right armpit, which is a disaster.

I find that difficult as well. Not impossible but more difficult than when my partner is squarely in front of me. I also find that V-position less comfortable.

 

[TTanguero]

I lead big steps to help the follower feel which foot to transfer her weight. Small steps lead to B-I-G problems.

One exercise a teacher had me do was to start with very unmistakeable weight changes, then gradually make them more and more subtle. She was able to detect them even when it was scarcely more than a thought.

She then suggested using the time settling into the embrace to do a somewhat abbreviated version of this to calibrate the scale of lead needed for each follower. I consistently found it was always less than I would have guessed.

 

[itwillhappen]

I lead big steps to help the follower feel which foot to transfer her weight. Small steps lead to B-I-G problems.

With a given rhythm, large steps have the disadvantage that you have to move quickly and consequently have little time for decisions, which can also cause stress.

I try to get beginner into a close embrace. To make it clear that her funny guesswork of which direction to move with which foot just stops now. We don't have to run away from ourselves.

 

[itwillhappen]

She then suggested using the time settling into the embrace to do a somewhat abbreviated version of this to calibrate the scale of lead needed for each follower. I consistently found it was always less than I would have guessed.

Yes - but if you don't try that from time to time in every tanda, where the hell is your attention?

 

[JournalInTime]

One exercise a teacher had me do was to start with very unmistakeable weight changes, then gradually make them more and more subtle. She was able to detect them even when it was scarcely more than a thought.

She then suggested using the time settling into the embrace to do a somewhat abbreviated version of this to calibrate the scale of lead needed for each follower. I consistently found it was always less than I would have guessed.

I've had similar teaching. At this stage I mostly dance with followers who need only subtle leads and who can respond to tiny, tiny steps. The floor conditions here don't make big steps realistic much of the time, meaning that if I dance with people who really need that, I can't dance except for a couple of tandas at the very start of the night . . . when my only partner choices are beginners.

 

[JournalInTime]

I find that difficult as well. Not impossible but more difficult than when my partner is squarely in front of me. I also find that V-position less comfortable.

The right-armpit thing is hideous, and horrible to dance with. I exploit the dark side a lot, so that placement cuts off about 1/3 of the dance for me. My view is that it's caused by followers who didn't properly learn to (1) stay in front of their partner (track their leader's sternum at all costs), and (2) keep their partner in front of them (orient their own sternum toward their leader at all costs).

The V is more manageable, but not my first choice either. Still, it does make it possible to dance with a few partners I like but who have too much in front, be it belly or bust. What helped me understand it better was canyengue lessons. I find canyengue uninteresting on its own, but it provides a better understanding of the "opening/closing book" movements needed to manage the V.

 

[JournalInTime]

With a given rhythm, large steps have the disadvantage that you have to move quickly and consequently have little time for decisions, which can also cause stress.

Yep. I embrace very close and very low, and generally take very small steps. The entire effect is to reduce the size of the (floor-leg-torso)-(torso-leg-floor) loop and allow a potential response to every note and to every space between notes, though I rarely use all of those. A nice side effect is taking up far less space on the floor, allowing you to enjoy a tanda even if you're stuck in a 60×60 cm square for its entirety.

I try to get beginner into a close embrace. To make it clear that her funny guesswork of which direction to move with which foot just stops now. We don't have to run away from ourselves.

Same. As soon as you open up, information leaks out both sides.

 

[Tango Distance]

... The V is more manageable, but not my first choice either. Still, it does make it possible to dance with a few partners I like but who have too much in front, be it belly or bust. ...

... I embrace very close and very low, and generally take very small steps. The entire effect is to reduce the size of the (floor-leg-torso)-(torso-leg-floor) loop and allow a potential response to every note and to every space between notes, though I rarely use all of those. A nice side effect is taking up far less space on the floor, allowing you to enjoy a tanda even if you're stuck in a 60×60 cm square for its entirety ...

Some claim a milonguero belly is a feature and not a bug for leading. It seems a milonguera belly could provide a similar benefit? It would help make your loop smaller. Why is "too much in front" a problem? (aside from tall lady short man issues, and maybe staying within 60 cm)

... As soon as you open up, information leaks out both sides.

Another view on that idea: Open or closed, the signal (information) is still there for a consistent leader, but open allows more degrees of freedom and enables more sources of noise, which would cause a worse S/N (signal to noise ratio).

 

[JournalInTime]

Some claim a milonguero belly is a feature and not a bug for leading. It seems a milonguera belly could provide a similar benefit?

I suppose it could! I don't know firsthand, because I don't have much of a belly myself. More than before the pandemic, perhaps, but we're talking half a trouser size here.

Why is "too much in front" a problem? (aside from tall lady short man issues, and maybe staying within 60 cm)

To be explicit: It's a psychological problem for the follower. I don't care much. However, busty women aren't always comfortable with some guy they don't know very well pressed against them in a way that smooshes the girls, and less-svelte women are sometimes self-conscious about being less than svelte. I also dance with women who have one or both of these physical features, but who don't care at all.

Another view on that idea: Open or closed, the signal (information) is still there for a consistent leader, but open allows more degrees of freedom and enables more sources of noise, which would cause a worse S/N (signal to noise ratio).

The information is always there . . . it radiates from the core, so a form of Gauss' theorem applies. But yes, opening things up introduces noise, which from a real rather than ideal receiver's perspective is no different from some of the information (flux) being lost. I'm sure that if I cracked open Shannon and dusted off my brain, I could demonstrate it mathematically.

For the non-nerds out there: "Degrees of freedom" basically means "sources of distraction" in this context – more ways to move that aren't germane to what's being led and followed. It doesn't translate very well to "freedom to express yourself in the dance." My experience is that a closer embrace gives more of that, as it allows things that aren't possible if you functionally have two legs and not four.

Your mileage may vary if you're less than flexible . . . I'm no circus contortionist, but I can lead 180° of turn comfortably without moving my feet or resorting to a milonguero dip (which I quite dislike aesthetically). If both dancers aren't at least that flexible, then yeah, dancing ultra-close blocks actual freedom to move.

 

[tangomaniac]

How did you like the Alexander technique? I've heard so much about it but am still unclear about how it works.

My practitioner said the goal is to move efficiently by getting the body into alignment. Many people walk with their head ahead of their spine. Their face juts out from the body. Alexander Technique realigns the body by getting the head directly over the spine.

Look at this video. (It's not dancing but it makes the point.)

Notice the posture, straight up. Their heads are aligned with the rest of their body.

My head was in front of my body, which impacted my axis. It took months to realign my head over my spine. My dancing significantly improved. I could pivot better because my axis was much better.

From ballet, look at these Fouettes.

Perfect axis. Otherwise, she would fall over.

I wrote an article for a dance magazine "Learning Argentine Tango by understanding Ballet." I wonder if I would have improved faster if I went to the ballet when I started in Washington, DC

Hope this helps.

 

[tangomaniac]

Some claim a milonguero belly is a feature and not a bug for leading. It seems a milonguera belly could provide a similar benefit? It would help make your loop smaller. Why is "too much in front" a problem? (aside from tall lady short man issues, and maybe staying within 60 cm)

Milonguero belly is a feature? I guess I should terminate my personal trainer who is also a registered dietician.

 

[Cal]

How did you like the Alexander technique? I've heard so much about it but am still unclear about how it works.

I’ve found Alexander Technique useful in making me aware of some of the things that I do that interfere with the efficient use of my body, or that get in the way of proper body alignment. For instance, one example: if I’m lifting a glass to my mouth, all I need to do is to lift my arm – I don’t need to raise my shoulders to lift my arm (heh – who knew?!). And Alexander Technique helps make me aware of how to use the primary and secondary curves and the spirals in my body, in order to move efficiently.

 

[tangomaniac]

And Alexander Technique helps make me aware of how to use the primary and secondary curves and the spirals in my body, in order to move efficiently.

The key words are "make me aware." My teacher said I didn't have body awareness, so I didn't know when I broke my frame and couldn't feel which foot the woman was standing. Embodied Yoga was tremendously value because the therapist was able squeeze out tension like wringing water from a sponge. Only then did my leading improve because I could feel the woman's body. (OH. That doesn't sound good.)