When my partner and I competed, we were given a ton of exercise to do. Some where to be done before every practice, some where to be done as a weekly training. My partner and I had totally different exercises to do. The excises goes through each of the jobs that each of the partners does. The exercises gives the body the conditioning that is needed to be done. It would be very difficult to write these exercises down. I am sure most top couples has exercises that they do to condition the body to do what needs to be done. Ask you coach what they did to condition their body when they danced.
Ballet for Standard dancers
- Thread starter vcolfari
- Start date
Laura
Well-Known Member
My previous teacher did ballet
Chris Stratton
New Member
Part of the problem I see with ballroom is that it's still in its infancy as an educational subject. This advice, which is about the only thing practical today, only works if you're in one of 3-4 cities in the US, and even then, it does not characterize the usual emphasis of training there. A child can be enrolled in ballet school anywhere, and while the accuracy of what they will get will very, the fact that there's someone making a business of trying to drill fundamental physical skills with a group of the public is already a major departure from the theme of most accessible ballroom classes. For real training in substance, ballroom is still stuck in the one-at-time apprenticeship paradigm; we haven't invented the university with its full mixture of lectures, labs, and post/graduate study yet.
I could see that at a very high level of development, but fundamentally if we look at the difference between members of the general public trying to dance, and intermediate competitors with even halfway developed fundamentals, there's a lot of room for drills to set common ideas long before you need to get into differences in jobs. I've heard of very few sustained efforts to offer this kind of sound physical beginning to new dancers - in fact, the only one I can think of wasn't even run by professional teachers, but was quite effective because it provided week after week in an introductory group setting what would elsewhere be mentioned only occasionally in a private lesson.
NYC, Chicago, LA, Miami, Houston, Atlanta, San Fran. Tampa, Detroit, Boston, Jax........
I believe there are several more locations which could meet those demands with the highest quality of understanding and instruction .
The marketing may be at fault, and also the willingness of participants in such an exercise.. but.. since never really exploited.. who knows ?
Chris Stratton
New Member
The problem is the difference between teachers who will eventually impart a lot of the key ideas to students who stick with them long enough, vs. programs where from day one, there's a plan for developing the really key long term ideas - and it's a plan that actually has people successfully following it. Too often what happens is that there's an effort to start something, but it doesn't quite hit the key issues in quite a way that would make a difference, and interest drops off.
- There do seem to be more examples of effectively teaching latin this way than teaching standard. I think it's because there's not as big a conceptual gap between a 'drill' and a solo practice routine for latin - it's a lot clearer what's important and what works vs. what doesn't because more of the latin primary skills are evident in a single body, while a lot of the demands of standard consist of one body learning to move in a way that can accomodate another.
- I've seen a number of examples where students where habitually doing what they considered to be standard drills, but in a way that reinforced a serious misunderstanding of standard movement. Drills only work if there's continual guidance to keep them developing in the desired direction.
- There do seem to be more examples of effectively teaching latin this way than teaching standard. I think it's because there's not as big a conceptual gap between a 'drill' and a solo practice routine for latin - it's a lot clearer what's important and what works vs. what doesn't because more of the latin primary skills are evident in a single body, while a lot of the demands of standard consist of one body learning to move in a way that can accomodate another.
- I've seen a number of examples where students where habitually doing what they considered to be standard drills, but in a way that reinforced a serious misunderstanding of standard movement. Drills only work if there's continual guidance to keep them developing in the desired direction.
BallandChange
Member
I have never taken ballet but I am sure that ballet training can help you in all of the above since these are some basic skills needed for most any dance. I also beleive that martial arts, acrobatics and/or any other physical training, that requires you to understand you center and maintaing balance, can help you develop most of these same skills. On the other hand, you need to realize that once you get past these basic skills there will be differences in technique that will be taught and drilled to train your body to do what is needed for that particular activity (ballet, martial arts, acrobatics, ballroom). This is where you need to be careful because you will need to be able to differentiate between the techniques for each activity. Example, Ballroom Standard requires that you feet be straight and not toe out, particluarly on your backward steps. I have seen many female ballet dancers (learning Ballrom Standard) struggle to maintain a straight foot becasue ballet training trained their feet to toe out. I also don't think that Ballet teaches you to roll through your foot as is required in Standard. And although good posture and a straight back is good for both dances the techniques to have a good position in standard frame is different than what a ballet dancer might do. My thoughts are that ballet training is much more helpful for you in developing you arm movements particularly for Latin and Smooth. I don't think that I would gravitate towars ballet for Standard. I would concentrate on learning and training my body in Standard technique and forgo Ballet.
As a classically trained ballet dancer for 19 years, I must disagree with a lot of what has been said about ballet training being detrimental to standard dancing. Yes, there are some things that a ballet dancer has to "unlearn" for standard (ie not to turn out, not to pull the knees taught in rise), but overall, the basic concepts that you will learn from ballet are very valuable to standard dancing. I actually teach a ballet for ballroom dancers class that focuses on the aspects of ballet that help in both standard and latin.
The posture in standard for the lady is very similar to a position that's used as a stretch called cambre in ballet. The arms are held through the back in both dances, so I'd say from the shoulder to the elbow for both man and lady, the arms are the same for ballet and ballroom. In fact, taking ballet would build up those muscles you need to hold your arms since you have no partner to just let them drop on.
Ballet is not all about being lofted. There is a center of levitation (ribcage up), and a center of gravity (around the pelvis area down). Ballet dancers are taught to use the floor, as you need to do in standard. Also, you develop a strong core in ballet and learn how to hold the hips up so the legs are free to move (what's needed in standard to achieve movement).
In regard to being between the feet, in ballet, you never allow the tailbone to cross the center line, which is similar in all dance since it throws you off balance. In very fast movements, ballet dancers keep their weight centered between the feet so that it's easier to move quickly, so once again, there are similar aspects to ballet and ballroom.
Above all else, learning ANY dance style alternative to one's primary style only helps strengthen the primary dance style. In learning a new way to move your body, you start to understand how to use your muscles more and can start to connect things you've learned in the primary style. Not to mention that learning to dance to different music helps with the musicality. So I would say definitely take ballet.
The posture in standard for the lady is very similar to a position that's used as a stretch called cambre in ballet. The arms are held through the back in both dances, so I'd say from the shoulder to the elbow for both man and lady, the arms are the same for ballet and ballroom. In fact, taking ballet would build up those muscles you need to hold your arms since you have no partner to just let them drop on.
Ballet is not all about being lofted. There is a center of levitation (ribcage up), and a center of gravity (around the pelvis area down). Ballet dancers are taught to use the floor, as you need to do in standard. Also, you develop a strong core in ballet and learn how to hold the hips up so the legs are free to move (what's needed in standard to achieve movement).
In regard to being between the feet, in ballet, you never allow the tailbone to cross the center line, which is similar in all dance since it throws you off balance. In very fast movements, ballet dancers keep their weight centered between the feet so that it's easier to move quickly, so once again, there are similar aspects to ballet and ballroom.
Above all else, learning ANY dance style alternative to one's primary style only helps strengthen the primary dance style. In learning a new way to move your body, you start to understand how to use your muscles more and can start to connect things you've learned in the primary style. Not to mention that learning to dance to different music helps with the musicality. So I would say definitely take ballet.
Of my experience most couple are having to change many of the concepts they have from classical ballet when starting to dance standard. I have student doing Martha Graham technique and that is very helpful. The understanding of the use of centers (contractions) are the same as in standard and latin. Many techniques like posture, center, balance and energy are the same in Martha Graham and ballroom. Classical ballet is not the best though. I do agree that many teachers are not teaching the basic drills that are taught in England. I do however have to defend the tea hers and coaches here. When I first moved to the US I taught mostly in drills as that was how I learned. After a while students asked to learn more "exciting" things. I stopped teaching drills in the US. I only teach drills in Europe and the Far East now, as they want drills. I am sure many teachers/coaches would love to teach drills, but if the student are not asking for it, then they don't get. There is a Chinese saying that I feel fits here "when the student is ready the teacher appears". If you want standard or latin drills ask for it!
Chris Stratton
New Member
Understandable how this happens as a pragmatic response by the teacher, but when combined with pragmatic decisions by the students, something important ends up missing.
The issue is that you don't need ideal technique to win most ballroom competitions, and in the ones where perhaps you do need it, most couples are being held back by other things first. What you do usually need on a comp-to-comp basis is to dance the most of what you have. And that's fairly effective - the problem is that when it's what you and everyone you know is doing, the fact that this wonderful development of dancing is built on a less than state-of-the-art technical foundation tends to be forgotten. So it's left to visiting coaches to remind top ranked couples that something like how they habitually use their feet may be serviceable, but is not really optimal. You get leading guest teachers teaching top ranked couples things that really could have been set years earlier when they were actually competing basic figures. But they just don't become must-fix issues until a coach declares them such.
Based on my personal struggle making the transition from ballerina to ballroom dancer, I would advise you to not take ballet lessons to simply improve your ballroom. Everything from my ballet training that was beneficial was a product of years of building muscle awareness. My past ballet training allowed me to bring experience as a dancer. Aside from developes and some arm styling, all other trappings of ballet required either heavy modification or were a hindrance and needed to be unlearned completely.
You are right a competition is won on a comparison, not on being perfect. Perfection is what you work toward, but don't ever expect to get there. I have sometimes marked couples to win were I didn't like what they were doing but they were better then the other couples on the floor. As a judge you are asked to give your opinion, make a comparison of the couples that are in front of you and mark what you think are the best at that movement. My teacher always said it is not about being perfect, its about making a few people believe you are the best.
Drills just help the body becoming conditioned to the point that you don't have to consciously think about the basic techniques. Most of the drills that we were taught in England are taught at every level. Most of the students that I have taught (children to adult), that have gone to championship level, has done the drills and are still doing them. They now do them as a total unconscious competent act.
Drills just help the body becoming conditioned to the point that you don't have to consciously think about the basic techniques. Most of the drills that we were taught in England are taught at every level. Most of the students that I have taught (children to adult), that have gone to championship level, has done the drills and are still doing them. They now do them as a total unconscious competent act.
BallandChange
Member
I agree wholeheartedly with Rinachick's posting and I am sorry for I did not mean to indicate that learning Ballet would not be beneficial. What I was trying to convey is that at some point there are some different techniques, unique to the style of dancing, that may contradictory and the student needs to realize this so that they apply the right technique to the right style.
Rinachick's course on ballet for ballroom dancers is a good example of taking the techniques, similiar across both styles, that more matured and well defined in ballet and teaching it to ballroom dancers. I don't know if every Ballet course could provide this differentiation and in these instances it would be up to the student to figure it out.
Goin