Ballroom and the economy

[Warren J. Dew]

Warren, would you be willing to share your list of bargain comps? Pretty please?

ChaChaMama

La Classique du Quebec. Dance Sport Montreal. Yankee Classic.

Last time I went to USBC, total costs including air fare were about $500 or $600 per person for me and my partner.

I think it's not so much which competitions you go to as how you do it. If you wait until the last minute to get a hotel reservation at the Classique, it's $200 a night. If you reserve a room six months in advance, it's about $100 - think of it as $50 per person double occupancy. If you're willing to go to a cheap motel across the river, you can get a room for $30, and if you're really on a budget, four people can split that.

The biggest key is making your decision and arrangements early. If you do it through your studio and wait until the last minute, it's going to be at least two or three times as expensive - and that's before the studio adds their costs in.

 

[spatten]

At one point, before I knew better, I was convinced that the organizers of NDCA comps were getting very wealthy. Now that I know more - I see that isn't the case.It does seem that Hotels are doing some price gouging themselves.

I think that in order to be more successfull - a couple things will have to happen. First as I mentioned before, I think there needs to be some weeding out. Until demand rises, something is going to have to happen on the supply side of things. I think that means less comps, there maybe another answer I am not seeing.

Second, I think the organizers would do well to rethink their pricing structures. Right now the comps seem to be set up to make a large fraction of the money from people who dance literally hundreds of entries. To me this is the same idea as focusing on one customer in the business world - not a situation most companies want to be in. I also believe such instituions such as large payouts for "top teacher (or the Pro with the most entires in many cases) - don't help the competition or the Pro in the long run. I think the organizers have dug themselves into a hole - by needing more and more entries to make money, the comp is weakend by the focus on getting those entries.

Run a competition well, attract well known pro's, mix in a little personality - and who knows you might even get a hugely successfull comp in the middle of nowhere like - Ohio

 

[Elizabeth]

That did NOT use to be the case though. Back in the day, you had to be in the know to even find anything out and most studios kept the wholesale prices from the students.

I can only speak for my experience, but I can remember back in 97/98 a discussion about how much to charge students for comps and how each student paid a different *base* price.

Hmm. If people still think its an issue then they should patronize the competitions with more open reporting. For example, the Yankee Classic seems to have their entry forms on the web in PDF format with prices included. As for the discussion as to how much to charge students, what would have happened if one of the students wanted to know what the organizers were charging for entry fees? It seems to me that the person with the checkbook gets to ask questions like that before writing the checks, not to mention they can always opt not to if the information they want isn't forthcoming.

 

[Laura]

I think it's not so much which competitions you go to as how you do it.

That's for sure. The year I went to USDSC I stayed at a Day's Inn a five-minute walk from the Fontainbleau. I also had two roommates. Rather than splitting $250/night three ways, we split $75/night three ways. One of my roommates flew into West Palm Beach rather than Miami on a super-cheap airline and saved even more that way -- she had a local friend who transported her from West Palm Beach to Miami Beach and so was able to do this easily.

 

[DancingMommy]

As for the discussion as to how much to charge students, what would have happened if one of the students wanted to know what the organizers were charging for entry fees? It seems to me that the person with the checkbook gets to ask questions like that before writing the checks, not to mention they can always opt not to if the information they want isn't forthcoming.

Well, back in the day, competitions would issue price lists with blanks so studios could fill in their OWN prices. UGH! And the wholeslae price lists would say "CONFIDENTIAL - For Studio Owners Only" or some such wording. So in effect, the comp organziers - many of whom ARE studio OWNERS (there's the rub I tell ya) - were helping perpetrate the rip off.

 

[pygmalion]

Just out of curiosity, I checked a couple comp entry forms that I thought up randomly yesterday. The ones that (still) don't have pro-am prices published don't say confidential anymore. I guess that was a red flag lol. They just have blanks for you to check off the selected entries, but no prices mentioned. And yes, I checked online entry forms yesterday, so this isn't old information. The amateur, youth and pro forms have prices listed at the top, for certain comps. But, for the same comps, the pro-am forms have no prices.

Yes. Of course you have the right to ask for whatever info you want. But how many people would know to ask?

When you go to the hairdresser, you don't ask how much he/she's paying for the perm chemicals (or at least I don't lol.) You ask how much it costs to get a perm, right? To me, the only reason people in this situation might ask about the wholesale prices is because the ballroom industry has a really nasty history, in the US, of bilking unwary customers.

If it weren't for that, I'd be 100% behind the right of pro-am teachers to set their price. Their cost, in an ideal world, should be their business, IMO. It's just because the ballroom world has, in the past, had some sleazy operators, that a bit more disclosure is probably necessary. Sad to say.

Just my view. 8)

 

[Chris Stratton]

Would you walk into a fine resturaunt, and ask the see the wholesale prices of it's food suppliers? Ask to see the payroll and lease payments?

No - in fact, you might not even seen the menu before you walk in the door, and then there's always the chance it wouldn't have prices on it.

I don't like premium pro-am pricing, but I'm not going to complain about it - I'm simply not going to pay it. I could envision doing pro-am sometime on a whim, but only if it fit in my (rather low) budget.

 

[pygmalion]

Exactly. I don't necessarily think people have a God-given right to see wholesale prices. In an ideal world, every pro-am teacher out there could be trusted to charge a reasonable mark-up, whatever that means.

*shrug* It is kinda nice to be able to go online and see what the wholesale prices are. Who knows? :?

 

[spatten]

But why couldn't the competition be the end product? Why does it have to be the wholesale?

Does a studio provide any value added to the competition? Not really. It's not like you are buying the competition services from the studio - as you would a restaurant. So there is a subtle difference.

I prefer the pricing to be straightforward, and wouldn't deal with any Pro who obfuscated the prices. Now if they want to give kickbacks to the Pro - ok, I don't need to know that.

 

[pygmalion]

Huh? Sure you are. You're buying the services of the coach to dance with you. But you're also buying their experience in dealing with comps, getting you through the rigamarole, explaining how to get you lined up, dealing with heats, dealing with the nerves, sometimes helping with selection of costumes, explaining how the process works... The whole nine yards. It's a service, big time. You're not just paying for entering the comp. The pro is providing a lot of service and support, over and above dancing. On top of which, they're foregoing their day(s) off and/or opportunity cost of not coaching someone else, while they're at the comp with you. At a minimum, they deserve to be compensated for the time spent. Just my view.

 

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, theoretically you could hire a pro as your employee, send in their NDCA pro-am teacher paperwork, make all arrangements, etc and be largely in control. But if you go to an established studio, they are going to do all of that their way.

 

[DancingMommy]

Huh? Sure you are. You're buying the services of the coach to dance with you. But you're also buying their experience in dealing with comps, getting you through the rigamarole, explaining how to get you lined up, dealing with heats, dealing with the nerves, sometimes helping with selection of costumes, explaining how the process works... The whole nine yards. It's a service, big time. You're not just paying for entering the comp. The pro is providing a lot of service and support, over and above dancing. On top of which, they're foregoing their day(s) off and/or opportunity cost of not coaching someone else, while they're at the comp with you. At a minimum, they deserve to be compensated for the time spent. Just my view.

This is partly what sparked the discussion so many moons ago as to how exactly to charge for a competition - what was fair - and how to recoup costs to the studio for loss of business etc.

I'll post MY views in another response. 8)

 

[Laura]

I don't think people are saying that the pro shouldn't be paid for their time dancing with you at the competition. Not at all. I just think it's weird that the basic entry fee isn't made clear. This isn't like a restaurant, it's a sporting event! If you enter a tennis tournament the price is the same for everyone entering. If you enter a ski race the price is the same for everyone. If you enter a poker tournament the entry fee is the same for everyone. So treat it like a sporting event and make the basic entry fee the same for everyone since the basic service (providing the actual competition itself) is the same for everyone. The studios and teachers then can/should tack on a per-dance fee or per-competition fee on top of the regular entry fees to pay for any studio time or effort and the teacher's time of course. All I think people are asking is that it not be some state secret what the basic entry fees are.

 

[pygmalion]

This is partly what sparked the discussion so many moons ago as to how exactly to charge for a competition - what was fair - and how to recoup costs to the studio for loss of business etc.

I'll post MY views in another response.

Somebody needs to take a basic managerial accounting class. There are formulae to figure out such things, or at least a starting point.

I think you did post a proposal sometime last year, with some pretty sound ideas that sounded fair to me, in terms of distributing travel costs, etc. Of course I don't remember where that thread is anymore. :lol:

But my bottom line is I strongly support the right of pro-am teachers to be adequately compensated for their services (even the less obvious ones.)

There is a point at which, IMO, those charges can become unfair. It's not always clearcut, which is part of the reason I can't support price caps.

The costs of a small studio, for example, may be much greater, per capita, than a larger studio. Or the expertise of a high-level competitive cooach, may have a higher market value than a less-known or less experienced coach. So how can a body like NDCA (or even a specific comp organizer) set a recommended retail price for any comp? There are too many variables involved, IMO.

 

[spatten]

At a minimum, they deserve to be compensated for the time spent. Just my view.

Hmm. Yes, I agree compeletly. I must not have been very clear. I am not suggesting your dance Pro is not adding value, or helping with the comp - I was suggesting a difference in the bussiness model.

Just as Chris suggested, the Pro is working for you - and you are purchasing entry into the competition. Rather than the Pro, buying entry to the compeition, and you buying the whole package from the Pro or Studio.

Both models do exist, I happen to prefer the first - I guess that is what I was trying to suggest.